Accusation against Alejandro Ramirez

[Roger de Coverly]

Chris, I presume you found the source, unless perhaps you were writing about something else.

A Google search by name should find the original twitter postings.

[Ian Thompson]

As an add-on, it would appear the message re being sexually aroused by a 14 year old female chess player was sent direct to Sabrina from the subject of Story 1 via social media. And is one of a number of similar messages that he has corresponded to her over time.

If you're right that it was sent by the subject of story 1, or even if you're not, what I can't understand is why the person would want to send such a message to Sabrina (before giving any consideration to whether she'd want to receive it).

[Roger Lancaster]

As an add-on, it would appear the message re being sexually aroused by a 14 year old female chess player was sent direct to Sabrina from the subject of Story 1 via social media. And is one of a number of similar messages that he has corresponded to her over time.

If you're right that it was sent by the subject of story 1, or even if you're not, what I can't understand is why the person would want to send such a message to Sabrina (before giving any consideration to whether she'd want to receive it).

It's a generational thing, I suppose, and I don't live on social media (in particular Twitter, or whatever name Musk now calls it) but my understanding of this particular matter is that, around 10 years ago, 'A' messaged 'B' to say that 'A' had fantasies about 'C', a 14-y-o girl, which 'B' has now passed on to 'D' who has publicised it. This obviously doesn't reflect well on 'A' but, assuming 'A' didn't take the matter further, this would come a long way down my list of priorities - and, on the same assumption, it would be of zero interest to any police force.

[Ian Thompson]

As an add-on, it would appear the message re being sexually aroused by a 14 year old female chess player was sent direct to Sabrina from the subject of Story 1 via social media. And is one of a number of similar messages that he has corresponded to her over time.

If you're right that it was sent by the subject of story 1, or even if you're not, what I can't understand is why the person would want to send such a message to Sabrina (before giving any consideration to whether she'd want to receive it).

It's a generational thing, I suppose, and I don't live on social media (in particular Twitter, or whatever name Musk now calls it) but my understanding of this particular matter is that, around 10 years ago, 'A' messaged 'B' to say that 'A' had fantasies about 'C', a 14-y-o girl, which 'B' has now passed on to 'D' who has publicised it. This obviously doesn't reflect well on 'A' but, assuming 'A' didn't take the matter further, this would come a long way down my list of priorities - and, on the same assumption, it would be of zero interest to any police force.

Matt is saying that 'B' is Sabrina, so 'B' to 'D' wasn't necessary.

[Roger Lancaster]

If you're right that it was sent by the subject of story 1, or even if you're not, what I can't understand is why the person would want to send such a message to Sabrina (before giving any consideration to whether she'd want to receive it).

It's a generational thing, I suppose, and I don't live on social media (in particular Twitter, or whatever name Musk now calls it) but my understanding of this particular matter is that, around 10 years ago, 'A' messaged 'B' to say that 'A' had fantasies about 'C', a 14-y-o girl, which 'B' has now passed on to 'D' who has publicised it. This obviously doesn't reflect well on 'A' but, assuming 'A' didn't take the matter further, this would come a long way down my list of priorities - and, on the same assumption, it would be of zero interest to any police force.

Matt is saying that 'B' is Sabrina, so 'B' to 'D' wasn't necessary.

I hadn't realised that, in which case I agree it's liable to be construed as harassment which would move it up my priority list.

[NickFaulks]

Chris, I presume you found the source, unless perhaps you were writing about something else.

A Google search by name should find the original twitter postings.

Oddly enough I had thought of that, but the comments you are looking for are not always obvious to the unitiated. Sometimes social media comments are not even made on twitter, it's facebook or chess.com or somewhere else.

Anyway, Lizzy is always interesting and I expect I shall find out what she said one day.

[Paul Cooksey]

Nick , lots of back and forth, some of which deleted. If you go here and scroll down you will get the gist: https://twitter.com/lisiko85/with_replies

The angry exchange in part because when Sabrina (B) posted the message A sent to (B) about C did not entirely hide the names, so the identities of A and C now also in the public domain, which Paetz objected to.

I might post further on my view on how Sabrina handling this, difficult to do so without saying things I am sure she would consider offensive. But one thing, for comparison, is this incident.

I played for Guildford locally and in the 4NCL at the time Sabrina was an active player, so was a team mate of many strong players. The only incident I can think of where a person talked to me about about a young female player in sexualized terms was when a friend in his 60s talked to me about finding a strong female player distracting. She was wearing sports wear and finding it necessary to perform back stretches during the game.

Honestly, I think my friend was rather shocked to be in close proximity to a young woman's prominent boobs. His reaction was partly in the nature of "my goodness, young people today" and of course he did not make a fuss about it. But as I say, in a private conversation between friends, language more sexualised than in the message Sabrina shared.

I can accept there is an argument that people of his older generation, and now mine, need to accept women's freedom to dress as they choose without creating an uncomfortable atmosphere. But on the other hand, I do not see any safeguarding issue there, or anything a parent should be concerned about.

EDIT: anonymized

[Roger de Coverly]

She was wearing sports wear and finding it necessary to perform back stretches during the game.

Would any male player ask the arbiter to invoke 11.5 in such circumstances?

11.5 It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever.

[NickFaulks]

Nick , lots of back and forth, some of which deleted. If you go here and scroll down you will get the gist: https://twitter.com/lisiko85/with_replies

Thanks, Paul. I don't know why Google didn't get me there.

Lizzy came to play in Bermuda as a teenager and already, if she had a view on something, you were left in no doubt as to what it was.

[IM Jack Rudd]

11.5 isn't really designed for that; it's mostly designed for behaviours that can be easily stopped. It's not (in general) reasonable to assume that a player can change clothes once the game has started.

[NickFaulks]

I might ask that the stretching not be done right in front of me while it is my move - that would apply to any opponent, not just to a female player in sports gear.

[Ian Jamieson]

She was wearing sports wear and finding it necessary to perform back stretches during the game.

Would any male player ask the arbiter to invoke 11.5 in such circumstances?

11.5 It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever.

I remember one game where I resorted to leaving the board between moves. I eventually won but more due to my opponent’s mistakes than my own play.

[Djuna Tree]

The only incident I can think of where a person talked to me about about a young female player in sexualized terms was [redacted] herself. My friend in his 60s talked to me about finding her distracting. She was wearing sports wear and finding it necessary to perform back stretches during the game.

Honestly, I think my friend was rather shocked to be in close proximity to a young woman's prominent boobs.

Why on earth are you posting a story about any chess player's breasts? Sports wear is common clothing for any young woman; women play chess; women do have breasts; people who attend community events such as chess tournaments will be around women (especially if women were not excluded so routinely).

I have often noticed my opponent stretching during a lengthy game; it's uncomfortable to sit for four hours or more, after all. If a person is shocked to be around young women, or distracted by the sight of a female body in the chair opposite, they need to adjust their own attitude.

What I suppose happened in fact is that your friend was attracted to his opponent, which there is nothing wrong with. Just play respectfully, allow any human connection to add to your appreciation of the game, and I suppose politely ask them to dinner afterwards if you wish. Do not tell disgusting stories about their anatomy, and do not shame them for being beautiful to you.

[Paul Cooksey]

I posted the story because we are discussing inappropriate behaviour, and is the example I had. I am not sure why Djuna inferred that I was criticising the woman. The point about her dress and behaviour was to indicate she was within the parameters of normal, if perhaps not optimal, behaviour.

I do not think my friend did anything to try to shame her. That would have made it a much more serious incident. But he did say something inappropriate to me, as Sabrina's friend did to her. Labouring the point, I disagree with Matt this is something that in itself creates a safeguarding risk.

In passing, I am not in agreement it would be appropriate for my friend, now sadly deceased, to have invited her to dinner. He was old enough to be her grandfather and happily married. But more seriously than this, one thing I learned from previous discussions with women in chess on this subject, is that being asked out very many times at an event is itself an issue.

[Djuna Tree]

I think you should remove that story, Paul. It is not as though you've said "I was aware of someone making highly inappropriate comments"; you've named a female grandmaster in a lewd anecdote about how her body and clothing distracted your unnamed friend.

My point regarding asking women to dinner is that it's the more appropriate channel for attraction toward someone than harassment (which the above post certainly constitutes) and assault. Compared to the juvenile comments directed at young women in chess spaces, I infinitely prefer sincere invitations that I can politely decline. It is perfectly legitimate for people to want to meet a potential partner through their hobby.