Chess Player Strip Searched

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David Sedgwick
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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:44 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:"Most chess players are absolute buttheads. For too many people, chess is an antisocial game. Therefore, chess players are usually old bachelors, lonely and unhappy people. But there are many cool players, too. I am constantly trying to escape from this stereotype. To be honest, sometimes I feel ashamed to say that I am a chess player."

Not particularly controversial surely?
The ECF has so far buried its collective head in the sand about the cheating issue. However, it did recently introduce a Code of Conduct which seemed to be primarily designed to prevent comments such as the above being made by or about its officers.

Not surprisingly, this Code was hastily suspended after a flood of complaints about alleged breaches.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:23 pm

The parallel thread on the chesspub.com site has some new material.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/Y ... 57/362#362

It can be difficult to follow in places as it has the feel of a Google translate, but this appears the summary
Borislav Ivanov wants the court to stop banning him play, and then he'll sue The Bulgarian Chess Federation.

Chris Rice
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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Chris Rice » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:32 pm

Meanwhile we have our FIDE Anti-Cheating Committee. http://www.fide.com/component/content/a ... ittee.html looks like they better hit the ground running and do whatever it is they are going to do a bit sharpish.

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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:53 pm

Chris Rice wrote:Meanwhile we have our FIDE Anti-Cheating Committee.
In parallel to this, FIDE propose to introduce a cheater's paradise.

http://www.fide.com/component/content/a ... c-web.html
The FIDE PB in Tsakhkadzor approved and the FIDE PB in Baku confirmed a project for an online FIDE playing zone which will be launched with very strong anti cheating technology. This is a joint project with CNC with a term of ten years. The project will be run on the CNC web.

The playing zone will be free for anyone to register and play chess there. But users who wants to earn FIDE ELO ratings (for rapid, blitz and bullet) will pay €25 per year.

There will be online world championships and all other FIDE events. Also FIDE titles for amateurs and professionals will be taken under consideration in this playing zone.
Online chess without the presence of arbiters just doesn't work for serious chess if unlike the ICCF you want to rule out engine use. It would be far to easy to play chess on one device and consult with another.

Whatever statistical methods they try to employ, they aren't going to detect someone using one computer to play and another to check openings or do the occasional blunder check or assessment.

Ray Sayers

Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Ray Sayers » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:24 pm

Hmmm
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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:47 pm

:)

Good Ray.

This bit:

".....which will be launched with very strong anti cheating technology."

It's a piece of paper you have to sign to say you won't cheat.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:57 pm

More here:

http://www.chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211 ... 50613.aspx

"Experts weigh in on Ivanov's performance"

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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:13 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: "Experts weigh in on Ivanov's performance"
For balance, also look at Andrew Martin's annotations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OLzbPytRKY


The "expert" has a curious way of thinking if he finds a retreat with a Queen from h5 to d1 supporting a Rook on d3 and reinforcing a pawn on d5 is in any way indicative of cheating.

There's a point in the game where the GM plays a natural looking Kh8, which is analysed by AM as the decisive mistake. The analysed alternative which may give chances was Kf8, which does look a computer move given their renowned skill at defending dodgy looking positions.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:17 pm

Yes, it is clear that Lilov's analysis is not that incisive and has been criticised by many, but what do you think of the new comments? Georgiev says: "It made a strong impression on me that at some point, when the position was repeated twice, he thought for about three seconds and diverted, avoiding a three-fold repetition!" Is that relevant at all? Evidence of stopping a computer from going into a drawing line? Houdart (the author of the chess engine Houdini) has this to say "It's not very useful to focus on individual move choices that appear unlikely (like Qd1 in the blitz game), it's the combined evidence of ALL the moves that is compelling."

This page (from Kenneth Regan) is also interesting:

http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/chess ... lfers.html

Fuller index page here:

http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/chess/fidelity/

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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:53 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Georgiev says: "It made a strong impression on me that at some point, when the position was repeated twice, he thought for about three seconds and diverted, avoiding a three-fold repetition!" Is that relevant at all?
It was a technique taught in the former Soviet Union, that you repeat twice even you don't intend to draw. The idea was to disrupt your opponent's concentration and perhaps humiliate them a bit. Equally it's a way of proposing a draw without taking the risk that your opponent might accept.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Houdart (the author of the chess engine Houdini) has this to say "It's not very useful to focus on individual move choices that appear unlikely (like Qd1 in the blitz game), it's the combined evidence of ALL the moves that is compelling."
The combined evidence is that most of his moves match those of computer engines. But in the absence of a demonstrated method of consulting these engines during play, you can only fall back on the explanation that the consultations took place before play and that he's found a training method and positional eye that matches the top engines in many positions. The family of engines from Rybka onwards have supplemented brute force calculation with sophisticated positional fine tuning, so if you knew or reverse engineered what that was, your move choices would match many of those of the engines because you were essentially doing the same calculation.

If he is cheating, then he has to have a method of communicating the board position or the latest move played to either an engine on his person or in the hands of third party accomplice(s). He also has to receive back the move recommended. Using the evidence of the rapid play tournament, all this has to be done at ten seconds a move.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Georgiev says: "It made a strong impression on me that at some point, when the position was repeated twice, he thought for about three seconds and diverted, avoiding a three-fold repetition!" Is that relevant at all?
It was a technique taught in the former Soviet Union, that you repeat twice even you don't intend to draw. The idea was to disrupt your opponent's concentration and perhaps humiliate them a bit. Equally it's a way of proposing a draw without taking the risk that your opponent might accept.
Yes, I'm sure Georgiev (for one) is aware of that. What I should have asked was why would it make a strong impression on Georgiev? What is Georgiev implying here? Is he surprised, does it seem human-like or computer-like? Normally, a human would pause, play the two repeated moves and carry on. The pause is occurring at the wrong point in the sequence (the repetition being followed by the pause, rather than a pause followed by repetition), is I think what Georgiev is pointing out here.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Houdart (the author of the chess engine Houdini) has this to say "It's not very useful to focus on individual move choices that appear unlikely (like Qd1 in the blitz game), it's the combined evidence of ALL the moves that is compelling."
The combined evidence is that most of his moves match those of computer engines. But in the absence of a demonstrated method of consulting these engines during play, you can only fall back on the explanation that the consultations took place before play and that he's found a training method and positional eye that matches the top engines in many positions. The family of engines from Rybka onwards have supplemented brute force calculation with sophisticated positional fine tuning, so if you knew or reverse engineered what that was, your move choices would match many of those of the engines because you were essentially doing the same calculation.

If he is cheating, then he has to have a method of communicating the board position or the latest move played to either an engine on his person or in the hands of third party accomplice(s). He also has to receive back the move recommended. Using the evidence of the rapid play tournament, all this has to be done at ten seconds a move.
You really think he can both think like a computer and do so at ten seconds a move? The former is unlikely, but even if it was possible (if you use computer algorithms without brute force, you would likely come up with different moves, not the same moves?), then doing it at 10 seconds a move is not really possible I would have thought. The algorithms are presumably complex, and a human would take time to work them out even if being 'intuitive' about it. i.e. Saying they are "essentially doing the same calculation" may just be wrong.

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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:47 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The pause is occurring at the wrong point in the sequence (the repetition being followed by the pause, rather than a pause followed by repetition), is I think what Georgiev is pointing out here.
The implication seems to be that the engine says "draw" but he's overruling it and playing on. Alternatively he's just testing whether his opponent is playing for a win. Having found that out, you then consider whether to accept the implicit draw offer.

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: You really think he can both think like a computer and do so at ten seconds a move?
It depends on style of play, but at a rapid pace, don't many of us just rely mostly on pattern recognition rather than calculation? So assuming that he had intensively studied with a computer engine, he was using his memory of what the engine came up with in similar positions.

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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:54 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: You really think he can both think like a computer and do so at ten seconds a move?
It depends on style of play, but at a rapid pace, don't many of us just rely mostly on pattern recognition rather than calculation? So assuming that he had intensively studied with a computer engine, he was using his memory of what the engine came up with in similar positions.
Would an eidetic memory help?

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:54 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:This page (from Kenneth Regan) is also interesting:

http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/chess ... lfers.html
Kenneth Regan at http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/chess/fidelity/Golfers.html wrote: The policy which I set on this site almost five years ago is that the spot can only be physical or observational evidence of cheating, something independent of the consideration of chess analysis and statistical matching to a computer.

Thus the statistical analysis can only be supporting evidence of cheating, in cases that have some other concrete distinguishing mark.
Exactly my point: for a punishment like Ivanov's suspension you should need physical or observational evidence of cheating that is completely missing so far.

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Re: Chess Player Strip Searched

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:58 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:This page (from Kenneth Regan) is also interesting:

http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/chess ... lfers.html
Kenneth Regan at http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/chess/fidelity/Golfers.html wrote: The policy which I set on this site almost five years ago is that the spot can only be physical or observational evidence of cheating, something independent of the consideration of chess analysis and statistical matching to a computer.

Thus the statistical analysis can only be supporting evidence of cheating, in cases that have some other concrete distinguishing mark.
Exactly my point: for a punishment like Ivanov's suspension you should need physical or observational evidence of cheating that is completely missing so far.
Yes, but... in the Chessbase article, Regan is quoted as saying:

"A bit of information in FM Valeri Lilov's new video that I regard as most surprising and important is that Ivanov took about ten seconds for most of his moves, regardless of position. GM Kiril Georgiev had stated this for his game against Ivanov in the rapid chess tournament in Kustendil (Bulgaria), where this would be less surprising. If that is true, then it meets the standards of observational evidence of cheating that I had in mind when composing my "Parable of the Golfers" policy page."

So maybe that observational evidence is there, but has not been properly assembled yet.

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