2013 Final Stage

[Alex Holowczak]

But the rule (quoted previously) referred to using results from the master list. Surely (for players without a July 2012 grade) the January 2013 grade reflects the master list and you could have used that and stayed within the existing rules?

Not necessarily. I could receive a clearance request for a player tomorrow for the Finals Day. Their estimate might include any Congress results played since then, or League results that have been submitted for end of season grading.

If they're ungraded in July, graded 135 in January, but are going to be graded 142 with their January-July results, should they be eligible for the Under 140 section?

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that question. The rules at the moment say the player is ineligible. Others might think they should be eligible. This was a point over which there was no consensus, so I left the rule unchanged in intention, albeit the wording might have changed.

[Roger de Coverly]

But it seems that you can become a retrospective member for some games but not others. Isn't this confusing? It certainly is to me.

That's the corner the ECF have backed themselves into. But it was down to support for the membership scheme. On the first vote the support was no more than 55-45 in favour. By the second vote a few months later, they had pushed it to 70-30. The retrospective membership or £ 2 per head per game were part of that, without it you have either to remove non-member games from grading or have the imposition of penalties in many league matches. The 30 may have contemplated removing their leagues from grading if defaults for non-membership would be likely to apply to every single match.

What the ECF are saying for the National stages is that players need a license to play. If they haven't renewed their license, they aren't eligible. They would like to extend the license to play concept to every competition including Junior ones. One of the Junior organisers has already stood down over this issue. They are thwarted, for the time being at least, by the point that most competitions aren't run by the ECF and they don't have powers to ban players if they take part in unauthorised events.

Individual Membership confers extremely limited rights to participate in the governance of the ECF, so it's really just a License scheme, much like FIDE imposed on arbiters and wanted to impose on players.

[Roger de Coverly]

If they're ungraded in July, graded 135 in January, but are going to be graded 142 with their January-July results, should they be eligible for the Under 140 section?.

Of course they should. As a general principle, don't create work for volunteers when there's another solution. The rules and concepts of the grading limited competitions should catch up with the existence of six monthly grading. They would still be eligible if 135 in July and 142 the following January. The simplest proposition for the National stages would be under the limit in either of the July or January lists. That's a simple one to automate as the results software already appears to consult both grading lists.

[Alan Walton]

What would the punishment be if a player plays in the final, but his membership expired the previous day?

It seems to me through this whole thread that the penalty will be imposed, or will there actually be some leeway.

Captaining a team is hard enough without have the additional micro-management of players membership renewals, especially at a county level rather than club level

[Jonathan Rogers]

What would the punishment be if a player plays in the final, but his membership expired the previous day?

It seems to me through this whole thread that the penalty will be imposed, or will there actually be some leeway.

Captaining a team is hard enough without have the additional micro-management of players membership renewals, especially at a county level rather than club level

I don't think there is much danger of a further catastrophe. For the Final the teams have to be submitted in advance and presumably a team list with an ineligibe player will be picked up by Alex H, if not by the captain; and presumably Alex and co would be there on the day and could process a last minute renewal, if necessary. (It should be said that Alex H has been helpful in this respect in 4NCL).

As far as the mechanics are concerned, the problems that have arisen so far have been due to (1) a badly maintained but supposedly up to date membershiplist, which can deceive anyone who just glances at it (2) Alex not seeing the team lists in advance, and (3) lack of internet access to renew at the last minute, as at the Essex v Norfolk venue. I would guess that none of these will ruin the Final. But unfortunately the Open competition has to a significant extent been spoiled already.

[John Upham]

Captaining a team is hard enough without have the additional micro-management of players membership renewals, especially at a county level rather than club level

Agreed: this was a complete and utter pain when managing the AMCA and BCM 4NCL squads.

I would definitely not entertain being a captain for an ECF team event if I was forced to do this.

I would provide the players contact details however and proxy the badgering...

[Roger de Coverly]

I don't think there is much danger of a further catastrophe.

For renewals, here's the list of June or July 2013 expiries.

Code: Select all

Tristram	Cole	P05522	157043C	Sheffield
Charles	Cooke	G04608	253575A	Metropolitan
Alun	Harford	G06363	231640H	Farnham
Andrew	Lewis	G04923	114349K	Ilford/Barbican
Gillian	Moore	G04997	240374C	Southampton
Graham	Nixon	P05517	116245H	
David	Sands	G05501	118480F	Barking
Adegbenga	Amusa	G06397	274986F	Metropolitan
Alexander	Combie	P03163	191288E	Newark
Ian	Cross	G05534	109134H	Harrow/St.Albans
Claire	Ehr	JG17103	253755C	None
Jennifer	Ehr	JG17102	253769C	None
Phillip	Ehr	G05547	253735H	None
Susan	Ehr	G17101	293465G	None
Alan	Gardner	P01261	142624C	Bentley
Phillip	Gardner	G00259	111064A	London Deaf CC
Mareta	Grigoryan	G17097	248725B	.
Meri	Grigoryan	G02304	240315J	None
Justin	Hadi	G04952	210384K	Imperial College
Patrick	Hicks	G00326	112619C	Slough
Callum	Kilpatrick	G03778	233318B	Dulwich
Daniel	King	G03496	127577L	Guildford
Mark	Lyell	G17098	114692A	West London
Joshua	Pink	G04601	266464B	Colwyn Bay
Stephen	Rees	G05563	267717K	
Chris	Waites	G02277	179155C	

In the cases of Ian Cross and Mark Lyell, the narrative column implies they've already renewed to August 2014.

There's a couple of Essex names at least that look familiar as regulars in the Open team. A handful of Middlesex or Surrey possibles as well.

[Alex McFarlane]

I'm still waiting on answers to my previous questions but i have thought of another one.

a) A new member joining today will pay the full fee and it is valid until End August 2013.
b) An existing member (3 year) will pay a pro rata fee for a membership until August 2014.
But what does an expired member such as Jonathan Rogers pay if he wants to renew? Will he be classed in category (a) or in category (b)?
If it is the pro rata fee, will the amount charged be backdated to the date of expiry or will it apply from the date the membership is renewed?

[Greg Breed]

I don't think there is much danger of a further catastrophe.

For renewals, here's the list of June or July 2013 expiries.

Code: Select all

Tristram	Cole	P05522	157043C	Sheffield
Charles	Cooke	G04608	253575A	Metropolitan
Alun	Harford	G06363	231640H	Farnham
Andrew	Lewis	G04923	114349K	Ilford/Barbican
Gillian	Moore	G04997	240374C	Southampton
Graham	Nixon	P05517	116245H	
David	Sands	G05501	118480F	Barking
Adegbenga	Amusa	G06397	274986F	Metropolitan
Alexander	Combie	P03163	191288E	Newark
Ian	Cross	G05534	109134H	Harrow/St.Albans
Claire	Ehr	JG17103	253755C	None
Jennifer	Ehr	JG17102	253769C	None
Phillip	Ehr	G05547	253735H	None
Susan	Ehr	G17101	293465G	None
Alan	Gardner	P01261	142624C	Bentley
Phillip	Gardner	G00259	111064A	London Deaf CC
Mareta	Grigoryan	G17097	248725B	.
Meri	Grigoryan	G02304	240315J	None
Justin	Hadi	G04952	210384K	Imperial College
Patrick	Hicks	G00326	112619C	Slough
Callum	Kilpatrick	G03778	233318B	Dulwich
Daniel	King	G03496	127577L	Guildford
Mark	Lyell	G17098	114692A	West London
Joshua	Pink	G04601	266464B	Colwyn Bay
Stephen	Rees	G05563	267717K	
Chris	Waites	G02277	179155C	

In the cases of Ian Cross and Mark Lyell, the narrative column implies they've already renewed to August 2014.

There's a couple of Essex names at least that look familiar as regulars in the Open team. A handful of Middlesex or Surrey possibles as well.

I can confirm Ian Cross renewed his membership on Sunday 16th June 2013.

[Jonathan Rogers]

I'm still waiting on answers to my previous questions but i have thought of another one.

a) A new member joining today will pay the full fee and it is valid until End August 2013.
b) An existing member (3 year) will pay a pro rata fee for a membership until August 2014.
But what does an expired member such as Jonathan Rogers pay if he wants to renew? Will he be classed in category (a) or in category (b)?
If it is the pro rata fee, will the amount charged be backdated to the date of expiry or will it apply from the date the membership is renewed?

Hey, I'd like to know that too!

[Jonathan Rogers]

I don't think there is much danger of a further catastrophe.

For renewals, here's the list of June or July 2013 expiries.

Code: Select all

Tristram	Cole	P05522	157043C	Sheffield
Charles	Cooke	G04608	253575A	Metropolitan
Alun	Harford	G06363	231640H	Farnham
Andrew	Lewis	G04923	114349K	Ilford/Barbican
Gillian	Moore	G04997	240374C	Southampton
Graham	Nixon	P05517	116245H	
David	Sands	G05501	118480F	Barking
Adegbenga	Amusa	G06397	274986F	Metropolitan
Alexander	Combie	P03163	191288E	Newark
Ian	Cross	G05534	109134H	Harrow/St.Albans
Claire	Ehr	JG17103	253755C	None
Jennifer	Ehr	JG17102	253769C	None
Phillip	Ehr	G05547	253735H	None
Susan	Ehr	G17101	293465G	None
Alan	Gardner	P01261	142624C	Bentley
Phillip	Gardner	G00259	111064A	London Deaf CC
Mareta	Grigoryan	G17097	248725B	.
Meri	Grigoryan	G02304	240315J	None
Justin	Hadi	G04952	210384K	Imperial College
Patrick	Hicks	G00326	112619C	Slough
Callum	Kilpatrick	G03778	233318B	Dulwich
Daniel	King	G03496	127577L	Guildford
Mark	Lyell	G17098	114692A	West London
Joshua	Pink	G04601	266464B	Colwyn Bay
Stephen	Rees	G05563	267717K	
Chris	Waites	G02277	179155C	

In the cases of Ian Cross and Mark Lyell, the narrative column implies they've already renewed to August 2014.

There's a couple of Essex names at least that look familiar as regulars in the Open team. A handful of Middlesex or Surrey possibles as well.

On behalf of Essex, thanks for pointing out David Sands! But see the rest of my earlier post on why there ought still not be any resulting casualties. This time. "Final"ly.

[Kevin Williamson]

The rule changes, circulated by Alex H. to captains by email in April made it clear that players had to be ECF members at the time of the match (he’d even underlined that bit). So, as harsh as it seems (and my personal opinion is that the punishment is too heavy-handed) penalties were applied in accordance with the rules and this was upheld by the Appeals Committee by way of rejection of the Kent appeal. It does seem that some teams have fallen into the unintended trap of not checking for memberships expiring during the competition; an easy mistake to make (especially since a different ‘rule’ applies to most local league chess) and a very costly one for Kent. It’s hard not to have any sympathy for their captain and players, but not forgetting the Middlesex captain who finds himself in a very uncomfortable situation through no fault of his own. I’m sure that nobody is feeling good about what has been a very unfortunate sequence of events.

Of all the suggestions for improvement in this thread (and there have been many constructive ones), the very best (in my opinion, and assuming that future rule changes don’t address this in some other way) is Anthony Fulton’s that player details should be entered onto the online reporting system before the match; obviously unsighted to anybody else, except the controller. Checks for current membership status could then be made, ideally by the software itself. Captains would then be alerted to any anomaly and still have time to rectify it. I think it was stated earlier in the thread that a last-minute phone call to Alex H. (or his successor – good luck to him or her!) would be sufficient for an instant renewal.

[John Philpott]

Jonathan Rogers wrote

Hey, I'd like to know that too!

Having looked at the information held in Paysubsonline, it appears that in common with other annual gold members whose memberships expired at the beginning of May you would have been invited to pay a pro-rata £9.30 to renew your membership for the four months from your expiry date to the end of August 2013. However, members whose memberships expire from the beginning of July onwards have been invited to renew from their expiry date to the end of August 2014.

[Richard Haddrell]

The Kent captain was aware that he had to look for expiring memberships because of his own membership expiring, but overlooked it for Scholes.

This is nonsense. The Kent captain’s membership did not expire mid-season as Mr Scholes’s did. He was a Bronze member at the start of the season, expiry 31st August 2013, and, unsurprisingly, still is.

[Roger de Coverly]

He was a Bronze member at the start of the season, expiry 31st August 2013, and, unsurprisingly, still is.

I notice that he's guilty of being an FM whilst only holding a Bronze license. He's safe for moment provided he doesn't play any FIDE rated games. It has been and perhaps may become again, a potential ECF proposal that National Stage county games be FIDE rated.