The North South Divide (?)

[MartinCarpenter]

Well worth separating Manchester and Lancashire in this sort of list. There's a huge difference, basically because of 3C's in GM. Nearly all those top juniors in the list are from them, so that GM should be keeping up quite well on a population basis. The rest of Lancashire I don't know about but I doubt if its half as impressive.

In fact (if possible - it may not be) it'd be good to see it by major urban area, because that might show things quite well. Even in Yorkshire I get the impression that it varies quite a bit.

The other thing is that if you look at say the U12 and under lists, they look overwhemingly southern to casual inspection. Then much less so as you go further up, and far less so (if at all?) at adult level. It would be interesting to try and work out why. People keep playing for a very long time of course but if this has been going on for a bit you'd have expected it to have filtered through by now.
(3C's for instance are very obviously obviously dominant in Manchester.).

Finally of course, listen to Phil not me or the stats. Much more reliable

[Roger de Coverly]

The other thing is that if you look at say the U12 and under lists, they look overwhemingly southern to casual inspection. Then much less so as you go further up, and far less so (if at all?) at adult level.

The logical explanation is that there's more developed systems in the South and other hot spots of recruiting and training young players and putting them into formal graded competitions. Whilst having a wider base should help, the number of players still playing after the age of 18, doesn't seem to depend greatly on how many there were at the age of 10. The grading data should go all the way back to 1994. It's known that the analysis by age just shows the generation born in the 1950s gradually getting older, but can any conclusions be drawn about the numbers of active players hitting 18, or 30 for that matter?

[MartinCarpenter]

That's one thing that 3C's do seem to do very well indeed - yes they produce a lot of juniors but they also keep the stronger ones playing long term very well indeed. They even get them to come back to Manchester, although having it being a major city must help there.

So much so that they can basically support a first division (I think they just got promotion?) 4NCL team just from their home grown players. Really, the ideal answer to junior chess in the North would be cloning Phil and setting up franchises in the other big cities. Tricky though!

[JulianClissold]

Threads about the North-South Divide provide tricky territory. There are a lot of variables, some of which probably are more about economics and politics than chess. I wouldn't want to attempt to cover some of the ground covered by this thread to date.
I am not as sanguine as Phil (Adams), who I count as a good friend and as a safe pair of hands. His record at Three C's speaks for itself (as in football the best place to do your talking is on the pitch). Phil would agree that part of his success is having a strong group of adults around him; but I would also add that a clear focus and perspective has kept Three C's on track for over twenty years.
There are other clubs in Manchester that encourage junior chess; Bolton has two junior teams, supports the local schools chess league and produces strong juniors of the calibre of Joseph MacPhillips. We are not the finished product but we keep trying.
Worsley likewise work hard with their junior teams, and a mention for the new Withington Juniors run by my colleague Fiona Green.
Still plenty to do. But I have some advice for those areas of the country who are not "THE SOUTH". Don't sit around moaning about how unfair it is; don't bother waiting until somebody decies to agree with you and do something for you; don't let someone else bring in their solution; solutions are always in our own hands.
Manchester children did not get selected very often for overseas representative matches......so we organise them ourselves and have been to Germany, Poland and hopefully next year the Czech republic.
Manchester schools had very little chess coaching or chess clubs......so we started going into schools twenty years ago and now have people in fifteen schools, boosted recently by help from CSC. Not enough but a foothold.
Manchester children had to travel all over the country to finals for EPSCA and ECF.....so we started running the finals ourselves so "THE SOUTH" has to come to us.
Manchester children did not have enough access to competitive/high quality tournaments......so we entered the Junior 4NCL to get our best children opportunity.
Manchester children did not have access to GM's for coaching (there are only two NW based GM's) ......so we organise our strongest players to support our juniors as they develop.
None of this is perfect or finished, none of this permanently or radically changes the balance. But it is borne of the conviction that if you want to change your world you have to do it yourself. If you want to alter the "NORTH SOUTH DIVIDE" in chess do it yourself.
Finally this does not mean that the major chess organisations (ECF, EPSCA, UK Chess Challenge, Junior 4NCL) don't have a responsibility to seek means to enhance geographical access to junior chess; it does mean that they can do much less if locally there are not people pushing in the same direction.

[John Hipshon]

I can only speak for Yorkshire, where I run junior events and my own junior club. As a previous chess parent, the North South divide has always been noticeable in that Yorkshire has been under represented at a national level in both girls and boys events. Yorkshire went through a particularly strong phase of juniors which is just coming to an end as they all head off to university, where we won county championships at U18 and U16 level and U14 girls.
However, having said all that, I would say that at the moment it is a reflection in the lack of strength of players in Yorkshire where the previous generation of strong players (Wellers, Li, Bowlers, Littlewoods, Hollingworth, Edwards-Wright, Hackner, Hipshon etc -sorry if I missed anyone) is just not being replaced either in terms of strength, but hand in hand with that, commitment. Yorkshire organisers are willing, but disparate, and while I do my best to keep it all moving in the right direction, it is an uphill struggle.

[John Hipshon]

Also can I say sensible comments from Julian.
I noticed the UK Chess Challenge had 52000 entries last year. In 2010 the number was 68000. That is a large % drop, and is since chess in schools came in.
Something is not working here?

[John Swain]

Also can I say sensible comments from Julian.
I noticed the UK Chess Challenge had 52000 entries last year. In 2010 the number was 68000. That is a large % drop, and is since chess in schools came in.
Something is not working here?

This is an interesting correlation.

I wonder if the UKCC will have to re-think its marketing. £40 for the entry fee (for up to 30 players) may be too much in the present economic climate, expecially if you already have a CSC initiative in your school.

I also believe the UKCC would benefit from starting in the Autumn Term, with the mega-finals early in the New Year. Many strong secondary school players don't enter when they realise that the megafinal may be a few days before GCSE, AS or A-level exams.

I wonder if this subject deserves a thread of its own?

[Andrew Zigmond]

I also believe the UKCC would benefit from starting in the Autumn Term, with the mega-finals early in the New Year. Many strong secondary school players don't enter when they realise that the megafinal may be a few days before GCSE, AS or A-level exams.

I wonder if this subject deserves a thread of its own?

Has anybody taken this up with Mr Basman (ie exam clashes)? It seems absolutely absurd.