Fritz , Romans etc etc

Technical questions regarding Openings, Middlegames, Endings etc.
User avatar
Ben Purton
Posts: 1619
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:53 am
Location: Berks

Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Ben Purton » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:40 pm

Hi

I have recently booked $500 worth of lessons with my old coach in a bid to improve.

I was wondering do any of you have experiences of Romans Lab or other media based learning. I really like the Fritz Training series but alot of the well reviewed ones just are not on topics I think will suit my game , like the Caro-Cann.

Kind regards

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

User avatar
Ben Purton
Posts: 1619
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:53 am
Location: Berks

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Ben Purton » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:13 pm

Considering this is a chess forum , I am a bit shocked by the lack of response here :(!
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8771
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:41 pm

Ben Purton wrote: I was wondering do any of you have experiences of Romans Lab or other media based learning.
Well, I could respond, but it would just be "No, I haven't" in response to that. I've never really been coached at all, at least, not to the extent you're talking about.

Trefor Owens
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:24 am
Location: Sittingbourne Kent
Contact:

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Trefor Owens » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:26 pm

I have had a few lessons on ICC - found a 1 to 1 approach with a strong player much better than interactive software/DVDs - I think the interactive way is much better suited to tactics, wheras my (many) weaknesses are positional/opening/ending ---- oh yes and still tactics sadly
Having said that I still like book based learning

Regards
Trefor

Michele Clack
Posts: 437
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:38 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Michele Clack » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:45 pm

Interactive lessons sounds good. How do you find out who's available?

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:49 pm

I'm of the shared opinion that learning via a monitor and
consistant computer use destroys your OTB vision.

You play OTB so you should study OTB with a full size set.
The book and board method has a proven history.

Play as often as possible and if really keen seek out a coach/good player.

Michele Clack
Posts: 437
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:38 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Michele Clack » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:03 pm

Play as often as possible and if really keen seek out a coach/good player.
If there are no suitable coaches locally, or even no coaches at all, then internet coaching sounds a good idea. You would still want to back that up with study on a proper board.

Threequarters of our chess club are separated by about 10 grading points. We had one player who came to us at 16 and gradually improved. Then we gained a good player who was happy to play with this young man and he improved again. The player then moved to a new area and joined a club with a lot of strong players. Despite now being in his middle 20's the player improved at a much faster pace. If he was to move back to this area now he would be our strongest player. I just think to really get to grips with chess you need human feedback which cannot be provided by a book.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8771
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:22 pm

I think computers are good for endgames. If you want to practice KBB v K, you don't need a human sat opposite you moving a King about. A computer can do that task by itself.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:12 am

Computers are certainly an aid to strong players, but to players
learning the game and wanting to improve then the student must have
a set next to them else the pattern recognition does not stick.

During a game your brain notes certain patterns and these suggest the ideas
that stumulate your thought process.
The more patterns you have (gained from study and experience) the better you become.
It's not the total secret of chess but it is a requirement.

The 3d patterns (essential in OTB play) are not stored via a monitor because
there is no pattern to store.

If you see a face on the telly you MAY recognise it in the street but only if you
have seen that same face on numerous occasions.

How often have you said to someone "That's what's his name from the telly."

But if you have met that person and heard them speak and seen how tall
they are and how they walk etc etc. Then you will definetly recognise and know them.

That is 2d and 3d retention in action.

Also your eyes are not roaming over 64 squares instead they are looking
at a 'board' at best 3 x 3.

The blunders I'm seeing these days as compared to 20 years ago are
really quite incredible. Then they use to miss two move tricks, players still do.
But the rise in 'blindspots' and pieces just left hanging is far more common.

I'm not alone here. I have spoke about this quite often with some very strong
players and the feeling is constant playing a computer means you forget how
to play v a human, and learning from a computer or even a DVD is a waste of time.
The brain switches off, it goes into TV mode.

John Hickman
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:35 pm

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by John Hickman » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:37 am

I’ve got a lot of DVDs, but I’ve no idea if they’ve been any good for my chess, but I enjoy them anyway. At least I’ve watched them all (some more than once), which contrasts somewhat with my large piles of unread books (…err, surely just possessing them will improve my chess… :? ).

The advantage of a coach I suppose is that you can tailor the lesson. I’ve got Bologan giving a lecture on the Caro-Kann on DVD, but I’d like to get him to talk about the King’s Indian instead!

As for the Roman DVDs, well I’m reminded of a post by Bibs on chesspub.com (various other DVDs are discussed here too).

“Dzinzi - the usual mix of good ideas, dynamic stuff, some decent analysis, claimed non-TNs, hyperbole, plus key omissions and stopping too early in important lines. ”

You get far less minutes for you pounds that the Fritz Trainers (unless you check out the second hand market), and of course it’s not integrated with Chessbase.

As for Fritz Trainers, I think the Kasparov ones on the Najdorf and QGD are excellent, as well as the Karsten Mueller Endgame DVDs.

As for other Media based Training, I’ve seen a lot of players praise CT-ART. I own this tactics based trainer (they do other trainers too), but I’ve not used it seriously. You can tailor the strength and type of the puzzles it throws at you, and it rates you (presumably based on difficulty, wrong attempts and how long you took) so you have a measure of progress.

I think the brain is a powerful tool, and is capable of translating 2D patterns into 3D ones as part of learning. Of course nobody has proved whether computer based learning is good or even bad for you, and it may work better for some individuals than others. On Danny Kings DVDs, he insists you use a board along side the video lesson, which means you've got the best of both worlds 8)

User avatar
Greg Breed
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:30 am
Location: Harrow, Middx, UK
Contact:

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Greg Breed » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:49 pm

The idea of computer learning is merely the progression of dynamic tuition. Having the board and pieces there is a good idea, after all, what is the point of learning or trying to improve your skills if not to better your abilities and results over the board? I don't know of anyone who would purchase lessons of any kind merely to play better on-line for example. If the end result is to improve over-the-board play then having the board (and pieces) there makes perfect sense. I'm sure I've heard or read somewhere that one of the distinguishing features of master level play is not simply a better memory but pattern recognition (as Geoff said). Masters do not need to memorise move orders or even innumerable positions, but merely certain patterns that enable them to execute winning lines with minimum effort and maximum effect.

If only I could be bothered to get my chess set out when reading a book or watching a computer based lesson, I'm sure I would probably improve further...
Hatch End A Captain (Hillingdon League)
Harrow Captain (Middlesex League)

User avatar
Ben Purton
Posts: 1619
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:53 am
Location: Berks

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Ben Purton » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:13 am

Thanks John for being one of the only people to actually answer my question and not rant about the pro's and cons of internet chess.

Yeah I brought the Shirov set at the British , but my friend Andy Green brought Roman dvds so I was curious about them

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Trefor Owens
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:24 am
Location: Sittingbourne Kent
Contact:

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Trefor Owens » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:43 am

I apologize
But if you thought my post was a 'rant' you should meet my wife!!

Trefor

p.s.
Hopefully she doesn't browse this forum
:)

User avatar
Ben Purton
Posts: 1619
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:53 am
Location: Berks

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Ben Purton » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:13 pm

I mean , I know what Geoff means, but in terms of 4 hours listening to shirov or 1 hour with a player who is not much much stronger than me. I know where Id rather spend my £20

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 1950
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Fritz , Romans etc etc

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:45 pm

Yeah. Sorry. I did rant on.
Here is you what you were after.

I picked up a couple of Roman's DVD's for £1.00 in a junk shop and
did a review for chessville.

http://www.chessville.com/Chandler/videorev.htm

£20.00 an hour for a coach is a bit heavy, especially if he is not all that
stronger than you.

I know properly done the coach will have to do a bit of work off board,
looking at your games etc. But £20.00....Inflation I guess.

I use to charge £5.00 an evening.

You did not play at the Britsh - just popped down for a visit?

Post Reply