New Idea for Caro-Kann players

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Chris Goodall
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm

I mean, if you want to convince me that 7...e5 is playable based on that game, there's the small matter that Shankland flattened it...
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. Northumbria League hand-cranker; ECF Grader for Bernicia and the NCCU.
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John Moore
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by John Moore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:18 pm

Chris, I'm really not that bothered whether you are convinced or not. We will see whether more strong players (much stronger than you and me) play the idea.

I know I suggested it as an idea for club players and mainly for surprise value and you picked up on these points and I understand where you are coming from but maybe it will go further than that. I doubt that Liang played the best line against Shankland but we shall see shortly perhaps.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:42 pm

John Moore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:18 pm
mainly for surprise value
It surprised Seirawan certainly. As it goes against conventional wisdom, quite likely there will be players who haven't been following the US Championships who don't know about it. That said, you have to know a little bit of Caro theory to get to the start position. Someone not confident in their knowledge might not play Qb3.

Nick Burrows
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:06 pm

After:
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. c3 Nf6 6. Bf4 Bg4 7. Qb3 e5 8. h3
Na5 9. Qc2 exf4 10. hxg4 Nxg4 11. Kf1 h5

Stockfish offers white no advantage whatsoever.

Eric Gardiner
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Eric Gardiner » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:15 pm

It's worth pointing out that the position before 7...e5 can also arise via a London move order. In 2016, I played the Black side of a game starting: 1.d4, d5; 2.Bf4, Nf6; 3.e3, c5; 4.c3, cxd4; 5. exd4, Nc6; 6.Bd3, Bg4; 7.Qb3. I have to confess the idea of 7...e5 didn't occur to me at the time! My opponent was aware we'd transposed to a line of the Caro-Kann and mentioned this to me after the game.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:52 pm

John Moore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:18 pm
We will see whether more strong players (much stronger than you and me) play the idea.
John Moore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:18 pm
I doubt that Liang played the best line against Shankland
:? So is there any point us patzers discussing opening theory, or not? Or only when we agree with you?
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. Northumbria League hand-cranker; ECF Grader for Bernicia and the NCCU.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:03 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm
I mean, if you want to convince me that 7...e5 is playable based on that game, there's the small matter that Shankland flattened it...
Because he was the better player, rather than any fundamental defect in that particular line?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Chris Goodall
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Chris Goodall » Tue May 01, 2018 12:16 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:03 pm
Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm
I mean, if you want to convince me that 7...e5 is playable based on that game, there's the small matter that Shankland flattened it...
Because he was the better player, rather than any fundamental defect in that particular line?
What would it have looked like if Shankland had beaten Liang because of a fundamental defect in that particular line? It looks to me like the weakness of b7 and d5, the blocked bishop on f8 and the open h-file all forced Liang into castling queenside, and then Shankland attacked on the queenside and wherever Black's activity was, it wasn't in the vicinity of White's king.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. Northumbria League hand-cranker; ECF Grader for Bernicia and the NCCU.
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Phil Neatherway
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Phil Neatherway » Tue May 01, 2018 9:59 am

After:
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. c3
what is the current thinking about Qc7, which prevents Bf4.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue May 01, 2018 3:52 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:16 am
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:03 pm
Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm
I mean, if you want to convince me that 7...e5 is playable based on that game, there's the small matter that Shankland flattened it...
Because he was the better player, rather than any fundamental defect in that particular line?
What would it have looked like if Shankland had beaten Liang because of a fundamental defect in that particular line? It looks to me like the weakness of b7 and d5, the blocked bishop on f8 and the open h-file all forced Liang into castling queenside, and then Shankland attacked on the queenside and wherever Black's activity was, it wasn't in the vicinity of White's king.
Shankland (and others) consider Na5 to be forced after h3 and exf4 to be bad.

Simon Rogers
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Simon Rogers » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:58 pm

Against the Caro-Kann, originally I used to play the advanced variation which just played into my opponent's hands.
I then tried the exchange variation, which didn't work well either.
I then tried the King's Indian Attack, which initially was successful but recently has been more mixed.
I am now looking at playing the Fantasy Variation.

NickFaulks
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:38 pm

Simon Rogers wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:58 pm
I am now looking at playing the Fantasy Variation.
That is fine if they go for a challenging line. The trouble is that they tend to curl up in a ball with 3...e6.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:17 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:38 pm
The trouble is that they tend to curl up in a ball with 3...e6.
It also threatens the idea 4. ..dxe4 5. fxe4 Qh4+, so White may have to treat the position in a manner similar to the Blackmar-Diemer by not recapturing on e4.

4. Nc3 Bb4 appears to be the main line in terms of popularity.

Nick Burrows
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:17 pm
4. Nc3 Bb4 appears to be the main line in terms of popularity.
5.Bf4 6.O-O-O and an interesting game.

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