Cheating in chess
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Re: Cheating in chess
Emil is full of the joys of spring this morning:
Emil Sutovsky
24 mins ·
INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
I totally disagree with the decision of FIDE Ethics commission on Fraiman case. It is so difficult to catch a cheater. It is so rare that Anti-cheating commission comes up with the recommendation to ban a player, based on a statistical conclusion. Why do we need this unique and sophisticated Reagan method, if its results are neglected? It is simply weird : nearly all players and arbiters who witnessed Fraiman's play in the tournament are sure he was cheating. Arbiter did catch him with the phone switched on during the game. Reagan's method clearly indicates unusually high level of play, Anti-cheating commission led an year-long investigation and recommended to ban a player, and Ethics dismisses the case. INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
Emil Sutovsky
24 mins ·
INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
I totally disagree with the decision of FIDE Ethics commission on Fraiman case. It is so difficult to catch a cheater. It is so rare that Anti-cheating commission comes up with the recommendation to ban a player, based on a statistical conclusion. Why do we need this unique and sophisticated Reagan method, if its results are neglected? It is simply weird : nearly all players and arbiters who witnessed Fraiman's play in the tournament are sure he was cheating. Arbiter did catch him with the phone switched on during the game. Reagan's method clearly indicates unusually high level of play, Anti-cheating commission led an year-long investigation and recommended to ban a player, and Ethics dismisses the case. INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Seemingly as a result of this ruling: http://ruchess.ru/upload/iblock/061/061 ... 2e223b.pdfLawrenceCooper wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:56 amEmil is full of the joys of spring this morning:
Emil Sutovsky
24 mins ·
INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
I totally disagree with the decision of FIDE Ethics commission on Fraiman case. It is so difficult to catch a cheater. It is so rare that Anti-cheating commission comes up with the recommendation to ban a player, based on a statistical conclusion. Why do we need this unique and sophisticated Reagan method, if its results are neglected? It is simply weird : nearly all players and arbiters who witnessed Fraiman's play in the tournament are sure he was cheating. Arbiter did catch him with the phone switched on during the game. Reagan's method clearly indicates unusually high level of play, Anti-cheating commission led an year-long investigation and recommended to ban a player, and Ethics dismisses the case. INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Presumably Sutovsky doesn't understand that statistics offer "probability", not "proof". I imagine that Fraiman will be under the microscope in future events.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I thought it had become an agreed practice that phones and other devices were placed out of use whilst play is in progress. Russian arbiters were seemingly not adopting this practice until the tournament was almost over.Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:20 amI imagine that Fraiman will be under the microscope in future events.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I have a fair amount of sympathy with Sutovsky but I'd like to see him respond to the point made in paragraph 6, regarding the standard of proof required in such a case. I'm sure this came up in the epic-length thread on the International forum, but my view is that if they don't have a high standard of proof then what will happen sooner or later is that somebody gets banned, the case goes to CAS and CAS says it's afraid the the case against the player isn't proven and the ban is rescinded. And what happens then?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
Pragraph 12 of the judgement reads as follows:Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:42 amI thought it had become an agreed practice that phones and other devices were placed out of use whilst play is in progress. Russian arbiters were seemingly not adopting this practice until the tournament was almost over.Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:20 amI imagine that Fraiman will be under the microscope in future events.
I have to say that given that most competitors are amateurs, who may be travelling a distance to play each day and can't conveniently leave their phones behind, and that most competitions are run on a shoestring, without necessarily having the capacity or personnel to store those phones on site, I wouldn't mind some explanation as to how that's going to be possible.12.
The ETH recommends that a standard practice be adopted in all FIDE rated events that the players’ mobile phones and other electronic devices be kept outside the playing area (see art. 11.3.2.1 of Laws of Chess).
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
I don't think it necessary to go beyond what's now routine in British events, namely that the phone is completely switched off and either placed on the table next to the board or in a bag under the table. There was a specific intervention that an earlier FIDE proposal was simply unworkable for events involving amateurs.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:48 amI wouldn't mind some explanation as to how that's going to be possible.
I might express concern that spectators are not necessarily banned from following the game on their phone or laptop whilst still being in sight of players.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I don't either, but that's what is being recommended.Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:03 am
I don't think it necessary to go beyond what's now routine in British events, namely that the phone is completely switched off and either placed on the table next to the board or in a bag under the table.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
A careful and well written Decision from Francois Strydom, which as usual gets straight to the point.LawrenceCooper wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:59 amSeemingly as a result of this ruling: http://ruchess.ru/upload/iblock/061/061 ... 2e223b.pdf
There's a thing. I was on the ACC ( then a Committee ) for its first year and warned persistently that their reliance on a statistical black box was flawed and would not survive any proper legal process. This was considered unhelpful and it was no surprise when my name, along with that of Shaun Press, was missing from the composition of the Commission.Francois Strydom wrote:5.The ETH finds the conclusion of the IC ambigious and confusing.
It also comes as no surprise that Sutovsky's immediate reaction is to attack the body which has pointed out their inconsistencies and failures. It would be nice to think that there are members of the Commission who will pause to consider why ACC is getting this so wrong, but probably they have been sidelined.
This tournament does not appear to have been reported for rating.
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Re: Cheating in chess
You are absolutely right. If they are struggling to get this past ETH they won't have a prayer with CAS. I have seen both in action.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:44 ammy view is that if they don't have a high standard of proof then what will happen sooner or later is that somebody gets banned, the case goes to CAS and CAS says it's afraid the the case against the player isn't proven and the ban is rescinded.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I wouldn't worry about that. ETH are making the point that the way things are currently being done is unsatisfactory and suggest one way of mending that. If an alternative method, more practical for players, could be found, then I'm sure they would be happy. I hope we can all agree that what happened in St Petersburg was no good.
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Re: Cheating in chess
The obvious form of cheating is where someone, who is already a decent player, retires periodically for a consultation with their phone. That might involve the calculation of some tactics, or a general assessment. That's only going to show up a limited correlation with engine suggestions and there's always the plausible denial that the positions had been analysed in private study and the engine moves remembered.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:27 amI was on the ACC ( then a Committee ) for its first year and warned persistently that their reliance on a statistical black box was flawed and would not survive any proper legal process.
A more detailed analysis would require keeping track of when the player left the board and how their next move correlated with engine suggestions. For that matter leaving the board when to move is suspicious in itself and arbiters and opponents would be right to ask questions.
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Re: Cheating in chess
If the agreed standard is that the phone should be out of use whilst play is in progress, then the St Petersburg organisers or arbiters weren't following this.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:37 amETH are making the point that the way things are currently being done is unsatisfactory and suggest one way of mending that.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I was bemused by Maradona's comments about Neymar's
diving. The biggest cheater ever in football was obviously upset that argentina were not able to cheat their way through 2018!
diving. The biggest cheater ever in football was obviously upset that argentina were not able to cheat their way through 2018!
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Re: Cheating in chess
Roger > For that matter leaving the board when to move is suspicious<
That is why it is forbidden in the Laws without the arbiter's permission.
That is why it is forbidden in the Laws without the arbiter's permission.