Director of Women's Chess

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:23 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:31 pm
I think I would go further. I would expect that if I applied for a job unsuccessfully that the application should be treated as in confidence and should not be made public (unless the aplicants do so themselves, of course) ....
Well yes and no.
No being (a)This isn’t a job and (b) exceptional circumstances apply.

Ie The question has been raised as to whether somebody has been unfairly treated. You can’t really discuss that unless you know who that person is. Well, it makes it harder

Hence the “additional” reasons are in fact the key reasons. At least, they are to me

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:45 pm

Just to quickly clarify, I'm not calling for the applicants to be `named` or `outed` and am happy for them to be anonymous at this stage. My point was that they would have to face the potentially hostile scrutiny Jonathan was concerned about at some point.
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Michael Farthing
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:01 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:45 pm
Just to quickly clarify, I'm not calling for the applicants to be `named` or `outed` and am happy for them to be anonymous at this stage. My point was that they would have to face the potentially hostile scrutiny Jonathan was concerned about at some point.
No, in the general case only a successful applicant does.

In this particular case, where there is a suggestion of bad treatment, there is only a reason for them to be named if they want to be - which of course would never be a problem. If they are to be named against their will then that surely would constitute double bad treatment. Of course, at present what we actually have is a complaint made by a third party via a public newspaper. It may be that the third party has made formal complaint to the ECF as well, but we have no knowledge of that. Until such complaint is received I would advise the Board to do absolutely nothing.*

*For clarity, this post is informal and in a personal capacity, is what I think at this point in the discussion and might change. It has not had long thought nor been discussed with colleagues and is not a governance comment.
Last edited by Michael Farthing on Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:11 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:23 pm
Michael Farthing wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:31 pm
I think I would go further. I would expect that if I applied for a job unsuccessfully that the application should be treated as in confidence and should not be made public (unless the aplicants do so themselves, of course) ....
Well yes and no.
No being (a)This isn’t a job and (b) exceptional circumstances apply.
My views on point (b) I've given to Andrew.
On point (a) I would respond, "Yes, it is a job. It just happens to be unpaid". I don't see that the lack of payment alters proper conduct.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:26 pm

I merely wondered who they were. I wasn't going to drag people through the streets then hang, draw and quarter them.

I agree there is a distinction between a private appointment and standing for election as far as publicity goes. As there appears to be ill-feeling over the appointment, I hope that there are several candidates at the AGM. Having real elections is a good idea.

"The internet is not a universally welcoming place for women."

Or for anyone else. But I agree women suffer more.

"Of course, at present what we actually have is a complaint made by a third party via a public newspaper."

It may not be a third party.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:31 pm

It may not be a third party, but everything I know about Amanda suggests that had she been the candidate in question, she would have said so.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:37 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:31 pm
It may not be a third party, but everything I know about Amanda suggests that had she been the candidate in question, she would have said so.
This is also backed up by her comment about the applicant being "a lawyer in her 30s" The full quote being:

Amanda Ross "yes...the person in charge of interviewing for this role, suggested to a lawyer in her 30s that she could shadow Chris in the role, until she was fit to take over. the administration of a £5k annual budget. :( "

NickFaulks
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:45 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:31 pm
It may not be a third party, but everything I know about Amanda suggests that had she been the candidate in question, she would have said so.
On the other hand, I did get the impression at Finance Council that she thought she was the right person for the job.

Nick Grey
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Nick Grey » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:58 pm

If she is an ECF member she ought to be charged with misconduct & bring the game into dispute whoever she is. Personally I didn't like the Casual Chess wine bar comments about safe environment for a friendly game of chess.

Going off topic at 1-1 Shakira to her husband is saying - my hips don't lie, but you handled that ball like a girl and then whined to the ref like a girl too!

Richard Bates
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:04 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:37 pm
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:31 pm
It may not be a third party, but everything I know about Amanda suggests that had she been the candidate in question, she would have said so.
This is also backed up by her comment about the applicant being "a lawyer in her 30s" The full quote being:

Amanda Ross "yes...the person in charge of interviewing for this role, suggested to a lawyer in her 30s that she could shadow Chris in the role, until she was fit to take over. the administration of a £5k annual budget. :( "
One could speculate that this might not exactly have been a totally accurate depiction of the course of the interview. One might also speculate that what was more likely was that the interview explored what the applicant thought the role (not of course restricted to women’s chess given the wider responsibilities/commitments as part of the wider Board) would involve, and perhaps the applicant was felt to be lacking in knowledge/understanding in that respect. But then anyone can speculate. Presumably there is some document on the ECF website giving at least the basic outline of what anyone seeking to join the Board is committing themselves to. Not least for the benefit of election candidates who don’t have the advantage of being able to escape by being rejected at interview ;)

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:07 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:45 pm
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:31 pm
It may not be a third party, but everything I know about Amanda suggests that had she been the candidate in question, she would have said so.
On the other hand, I did get the impression at Finance Council that she thought she was the right person for the job.
My memory, which may be flawed (well, it is getting very flawed), was that then and subsequently she has excluded herself but indicated that she had another name in mind. In any case, even if I'm mistaken and it is her I'm still inclined to view it as a third party complaint while the complaint uses the 3rd person pronoun :-)

Richard Bates
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:12 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:58 pm
Probably sensible to stick to on topic comments in future. Although some might (with justification) that it was very on topic. In a negative way.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:21 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:58 pm
If she is an ECF member she ought to be charged with misconduct & bring the game into dispute ....
Leaving aside the question of grounds, does the ECF have the procedures to do this? If so please do explain the procedure and range of penalties available.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:37 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:21 pm
Leaving aside the question of grounds, does the ECF have the procedures to do this?
Applying only to ECF Officials.

https://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-cont ... b-2015.pdf

Even that is somewhat discredited after being used as a weapon in internal struggles between ECF Directors.

3.4 was overtaken by events
3.4
ECF officials shall preferentially communicate on the ECF website/Forum (e.g. news of ECF events should be published on an ECF site before other sites).

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JustinHorton
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Re: Director of Women's Chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:59 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:58 pm
If she is an ECF member she ought to be charged with misconduct & bring the game into dispute whoever she is.
Why not eh, might as well top everything that's already happened
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