Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

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Chris Rice
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Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Chris Rice » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:42 am

The 2019 edition of the Altibox Norway tournament will feature a radical change in the scoring system.

"Each encounter in Altibox Norway Chess next year will produce a winner, as one of the world’s top super tournaments has decided to trial an idea long championed by the likes of Rustam Kasimdzhanov and Sergey Shipov. In each match-up a FIDE-rated classical game will earn the winner two points, but if there’s a draw the players will share half a point each and then immediately play Armageddon for the remaining point. The organisers hope to “create more excitement for spectators and put more pressure on the players”.

Full article here. The tournament takes place June 3-15, 2019.

Graham Borrowdale
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:13 am

Interesting idea. Had to check it's not April 1st. Presumably a coincidence that this would favour Carlsen. It could also favour weaker players, who might be able to take a draw with white in order to randomise the result in the Armageddon game.
The article compares chess to tennis, but I don't think the comparison is valid, as tennis is, in effect, a series of very short games. A chess game is just that, a single game.
A different analogy would be a football league, where a draw is a valid result. There are already penalty shoot-outs in knock out competitions, but nobody would dream of having a penalty shoot-out after every league match on a Saturday afternoon.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:15 am

Chris Rice wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:42 am
The 2019 edition of the Altibox Norway tournament will feature a radical change in the scoring system.
They are also dropping increments and intermediate time controls in favour of all the moves in 120 minutes. I've slightly lost track of what 10.2 or Appendix G is called these days, but presumably they are going to need arbiters experienced in its application and outline for the benefit of the players how it might be applied. Alternatively perhaps they will have a very modest increment or delay so the need to apply "unable" rules doesn't apply.

NickFaulks
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:29 am

Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:13 am
but nobody would dream of having a penalty shoot-out after every league match on a Saturday afternoon.
Really? I would bet that there are adminstrators dreaming of that right now. It is how all the big US sports operate.

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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:00 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:29 am
Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:13 am
but nobody would dream of having a penalty shoot-out after every league match on a Saturday afternoon.
Really? I would bet that there are adminstrators dreaming of that right now. It is how all the big US sports operate.
Ice hockey being the example that looks closest to what Altibox are doing. All major levels of the game have had 3 for a win (2 in the NHL), 2 for a win in overtime or a shootout, 1 for a loss in overtime or a shootout, and 0 for a loss for quite some years.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:15 am
They are also dropping increments and intermediate time controls in favour of all the moves in 120 minutes. I've slightly lost track of what 10.2 or Appendix G is called these days, but presumably they are going to need arbiters experienced in its application and outline for the benefit of the players how it might be applied. Alternatively perhaps they will have a very modest increment or delay so the need to apply "unable" rules doesn't apply.
It's Guideline III. I asked one of their arbiters whether the Guideline would be in play, and he thought that it would be. He didn't expect it there would be any claims under it, but I'm not sure I share his confidence.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:13 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:00 am
It's Guideline III. I asked one of their arbiters whether the Guideline would be in play, and he thought that it would be. He didn't expect it there would be any claims under it, but I'm not sure I share his confidence.
Assuming it's still there, they could use the clock substitution rule. That's got to be better than an arbiter trying to decide whether Carlsen or other top GMs are attempting to win by normal means or even that the position can be won by normal means. Carlsen was critical of arbiter decisions to permit draws in a recent event where draw agreements had to be approved.

Perhaps if a G/120 format became popular, a new time control could be devised where the flow of the game was not interrupted by a claim and arbiter intervention, but a delay or increment was automatically applied when one of the players hit their last two minutes.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:31 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:29 am
Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:13 am
but nobody would dream of having a penalty shoot-out after every league match on a Saturday afternoon.
Really? I would bet that there are adminstrators dreaming of that right now. It is how all the big US sports operate.
My vague recollection is that the North American Soccer League operated in this way for at least a while in the Seventies. It wouldn't be suggested now.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:10 pm

I think the Japanese football league also had it for a while.
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NickFaulks
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:22 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:13 am
Perhaps if a G/120 format became popular, a new time control could be devised where the flow of the game was not interrupted by a claim and arbiter intervention, but a delay or increment was automatically applied when one of the players hit their last two minutes.
There isn't a clock that can do that, and in any case why not make it G/115 with a 5 second increment? What difference does it really make?

I doubt that this is their intention at all. They have seen video clips of the St Louis blitz with no increment, both players banging the clock at once and pawns rolling around on the board, and have decided that is the way they want to go.
Last edited by NickFaulks on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Peter Shaw
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Peter Shaw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:23 pm

I don't mind the idea of a blitz play off in the event of a draw but it's so disappointing that they are reverting to time controls without increments. I suppose we can look forward to more farcical finishes like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWVuO66JnlQ

I don't really care if they use increments, delay or even byo-yomi but guillotine finishes should be consigned to the past.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:26 pm

Peter Shaw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:23 pm
I don't mind the idea of a blitz play off in the event of a draw but it's so disappointing that they are reverting to time controls without increments.
My sentiments exactly. G/115 + 5s, as suggested by Mick, would be distinctly preferable. Alternatively, you could have the increment only from move 61.

For the avoidance of doubt, these are my opinions, not those of the Grand Chess Tour.

J T Melsom
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:37 pm

I think I'd be more concerned about the down-grading of a draw as a legitimate outcome to a game, than about the choice of time control. Coping with time management is part of the game isn't it. Most sports have a fixed time limit which potentially impacts on the result. You don't always get time to take a corner properly, or to shoot that final basket, take the last wicket etc. And games/sports can be marred by lack of time, weather interventions which save teams from a drubbing. There may be better time controls but its not a big thing to my mind.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:01 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:26 pm
Peter Shaw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:23 pm
I don't mind the idea of a blitz play off in the event of a draw but it's so disappointing that they are reverting to time controls without increments.
My sentiments exactly. G/115 + 5s, as suggested by Nick, would be distinctly preferable. Alternatively, you could have the increment only from move 61.

For the avoidance of doubt, these are my opinions, not those of the Grand Chess Tour.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:09 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:22 pm
There isn't a clock that can do that
A bit clunky, but set the initial time period to 118 minutes with no increment and the second period to 2 minutes with 5 second increment. Set the press counter not to do anything.

It's going to have to follow the FIDE Laws of Chess presumably, thus giving players the right to make Guideline III claims and arbiters the dilemma of how to deal with them.

Brian Towers
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Re: Altibox Norway 2019 - the future of chess?

Post by Brian Towers » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:15 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:13 am
Perhaps if a G/120 format became popular, a new time control could be devised where the flow of the game was not interrupted by a claim and arbiter intervention, but a delay or increment was automatically applied when one of the players hit their last two minutes.
It's not that straightforward. First, the request for the increment constitutes a draw offer. If you are a lot of material up you are unlikely to want to offer a draw. Second, the other player gets an extra 2 minutes on the clock. In a complicated but otherwise level game you probably don't want that either. It could give your opponent a big advantage.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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