Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

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Nick Burrows
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Nick Burrows » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:09 am

Steven DuCharme wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:07 am
Chess-db.com has Ivanchuk defeating Tiviakov on 12.18.2004 He then had a 74 game streak.
Tiviakov says they were rapid games.

Not all his games are on Chessgames.com

I bet he's including early rounds of weekenders in his run!

Chris Rice
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:20 am

I had a go checking Tiviakov's figures on Mega Database 2018 and without debating whether there were team games and weekenders included I couldn't get anywhere near his figure of 110. After the two losses to Ivanchuk in a rapid on 18 December 2004 I counted a 72 game streak up to his loss against Shabalov on 28 September 2005.
Nick Burrows wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:36 am
Tiviakov lost to Sokolov in July 2004 & to Shabalov in September 2005. Anyone out there with a large database to join the dots?
If we start from the Sokolov loss on 1 July 2004 then there were two defeats after that before the Ivanchuk losses:
27 July 2004 Tiviakov 0-1 Hamelink Dieren Open
27 October 2004 Georgiev 1-0 Tiviakov Calvia Olympiad

Therefore, to try and understand how Tiviakov got to that figure I started counting from the Georgiev game and not including any rapid tournaments ie the Ivanchuk losses, which added a further 16 wins to make 88 still well short. The only other way of getting a definitive list I could think of would be to go on the FIDE site and plod through that period from 2004-5 but that looks like a lot of work.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:58 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:20 am
The only other way of getting a definitive list I could think of would be to go on the FIDE site and plod through that period from 2004-5 but that looks like a lot of work.
It wouldn't be that much work would it? If you can do the same for Ding Liren, then that is a way to have a verifiable online record of such claims for FIDE-rated games from July 2000 onwards, and that can be extended back for offline rating lists. Can the same be done for Tal's undefeated sequence? I suspect the other sequences may involved non-FIDE-rated games.

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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:41 pm

So on the day that Ding Liren finally loses his unbeaten record which comes to rest at 100 I thought it best to try and clear up this Tiviakov claim.

I put it to Sergey Tiviakov directly that I was unable to verify his claim and that I'd been through the database and the games were simply not there to back it up, perhaps they were unrated club games as suugested above? His response was "Of course, not all games are in database since in 2004 - 2005 lot of games from different tournaments were not published. ChessBase and Chess-news.ru have my games played. They have verified my record."

Both ChessBase and New in Chess both reference his record claim in numerous interviews and articles but on none of the searches I did was there ever a list or a verification. Nothing at all could I find on chess-news.ru. Significantly, on Wiki's List of World Records the section headed Consecutive games without a loss does not reference Tiviakov's claim, so my feeling is that unless Tiviakov produces the evidence then his claim should not be recognised. Fair enough?

Nick Burrows
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:00 pm

Agreed. What's the issue with him producing a list of results, rather than saying "it was once verified"

Chris Rice
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:34 pm

We've had a few developments. Tiviakov has sent off a file of his 110 games to ChessBase as verification. Here's the article by Macauley Peterson. As you can see Sergey was blocked from trying to enter his record on Wikipedia.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:30 pm

The average rating of Tiviakovs 110 games is probably about 200 elo points lower than Ding's. It's just not comparable. Do we count an unbeaten run at the 2000 fide level?

Mick Norris
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:51 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:41 pm
Significantly, on Wiki's List of World Records the section headed Consecutive games without a loss does not reference Tiviakov's claim
It's back on there tonight
Sergei Tiviakov in 2004-05 - 110 games (57 wins & 53 draws)
Ding Liren in 2017-18 - 100 games (29 wins & 71 draws)
Mikhail Tal in 1973-74 - 95 games (46 wins & 49 draws)
Vladimir Malakhov in 2015-2017 - 93 games (37 wins & 56 draws)
Mikhail Tal in 1972-73 - 86 games (47 wins & 39 draws)
Wang Yue in 2008 - 85 games (30 wins & 55 draws)
Milan Drasko in 2006-07 - 84 games
Vladimir Kramnik in 1999-00 - 82 games
Wesley So in 2016-17 - 67 games (25 wins & 42 draws)
Maxime Vachier-Lagrave in 2015-16 - 67 games (27 wins & 40 draws)
Capablanca during 1916-24 - 63 games (40 wins & 23 draws)
Le Quang Liem in 2016-17 - 59 games (26 wins & 33 draws)
Wesley So in 2014-15 - 54 games (30 wins & 24 draws)
Sam Shankland in 2017-18 - 53 games (25 wins & 28 draws)
Fabiano Caruana in 2016-17 - 50 games (19 wins & 31 draws)
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:53 pm

So in the space of four hours we've got the 110 games and the entry into Wiki's List of Chess World Records. So case closed then? Well no, I think we've only just got going on the new argument of comparability that Tiviakov played lots of players around the 2000 mark and one who was 1500 whereas Ding Liren only played six players under 2700. However Sergey had a few things to say to those knocking his streak on his FB site :

"There is a clear definition of the record requirements: highest number of the tournament games without a loss. If you are not happy with the strength of the opponents, establish a new record category where players would have to have a minimum elo of being in the top 10 with a defined average elo of the opponents. Only those who fulfil the requirements will be eligible for a record. Also consider rating inflation in all years... So far as I know, there are no rating/strength requirements for the current record! So all the talks and speculations are just the jealous attempts to diminish someone's achievements! My record is a record! End of the story and discussions!"

and

"Also don't forget that playing mostly in the open tournaments is much harder than in the round-robins. In the round-robin the draw is a good result, you don't have to push hard. But in the open tournaments you have to play for a win in every game in order not to finish without a prize. It is a completely different type of chess, when you don't lose in opens, still pushing very hard and taking risk in every tournament, it is really an achievement."

NickFaulks
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:35 pm

Did the list of Tiviakov's 110 games appear somewhere?

Steven DuCharme
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Steven DuCharme » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:39 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:35 pm
Did the list of Tiviakov's 110 games appear somewhere?
please check chessbase.com asap. Thank you :twisted:
I float like a pawn island and sting like an ignored knight :mrgreen:

Chris Rice
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:04 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:35 pm
Did the list of Tiviakov's 110 games appear somewhere?
Here's the link again Nick, the file of his games is about halfway through the article.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:47 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:30 pm
The average rating of Tiviakovs 110 games is probably about 200 elo points lower than Ding's. It's just not comparable. Do we count an unbeaten run at the 2000 fide level?
I don't obviously see why not, if you can find one.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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NickFaulks
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:26 am

Chris Rice wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:04 am
Here's the link again Nick, the file of his games is about halfway through the article.
Thanks, I had been there but thought it was just a screenshot rather than a working database.

My only complaint is that the 2005 tournament in Haarlem, where he played 5 games, was not FIDE rated. Of course I do not suggest that unrated games are not games, but the problem is that we cannot be sure that he didn't lose any unrated games during this period. The record of 105 consecutive rated games without a loss looks secure.

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