Rating/grading bounds correlations

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Brian Towers
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by Brian Towers » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:27 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:04 am
Reminds me of -
Even if parallel lines do meet and I see it myself, I shall see it and say that they’ve met, but still I won’t accept it.
(The Brothers Karamazov)
Depends on the geometry.
Parallel lines on a sphere do meet. Twice.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

John McKenna

Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by John McKenna » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:08 pm

However, the point being drawn in the novel was one of a subjective moral nature and not an objective non-Euclidian geometrical one.

The argument being made was one in favour of belief over and above the senses and reason.

The refusal to accept the mathematical miracle of Euclidean parallel lines meeting was meant to illustrate the power of spiritual belief and the denial of wordly illusion above all else.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:38 pm

Why does anyybody expect the ECF Grade to coincide precisely with a FIDE Rating and that to wrok wih different numbers?
They may be based on different games, being played under different conditions.
Ratings are updated monthly and Grades twice a year.
Rating to expected result is a non-linear function. ECF to expected result is linear until it falls off the cliff.
A graph could be prepared showing the relationship between grade and rating at a particular time. But it would need updating every year. (possibly doing it every five years).

Just as junior ratings and grades often lag reality, so do those of Seniors.

Paul McKeown
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by Paul McKeown » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:37 am

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:38 pm
Why does anyybody expect the ECF Grade to coincide precisely with a FIDE Rating and that to wrok wih different numbers?
And here we have a typical rhetorical device. Attack a strawman and do it to death.

John McKenna

Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by John McKenna » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:21 pm

Paul, whether Stewart's opening sentence you quoted in splendid isolation, above, is as you characterise it to be, or not, the rest of his post makes some sense to me.

Now I, too, will try to do the topic to death - due to the simple fact that a player's ECF grade can be rising at a time when his FIDE rating is falling, and vice versa, it must be clear to all that we are dealing, not only with two separarate systems, but two disparate systems.

Your original post in this thread begins and ends with pertinent questions -
Paul McKeown wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:55 pm
What are people's view of the best correlations between bounds for tournament sections and/or grading prizes, please?

One could use the formula of FIDE = 7.5 * ECF + 700.

However, that seems to put most ECF grades - to my eye anyway - at too high a FIDE level.

What do others suggest?
You seem dissatisfied with Stewart's, above, response - perhaps because he refuses to cooperate, here, in trying to get the two systems to come closer together and kind of agree more with each other in a better/best possible fit?

In my view, what we are dealing with here is a form of "one country two systems" situation.

And, it is not usually easy for that sort of situation to persist for very long. (China and the UK agreed 50 years in the case of Hong Kong - but it now looks unlikely to persist that long.)

The ECF's grading system and FIDE's rating system have existed, side by side, for about 50 years now, in some form or other.

The ECF grading system, for (*all?) its membership, since the late 1950s and the FIDE rating system has been around since 1970 (initially for only masters 2200+, and in 1974 containing only about two dozen male ENG players and a single female - Dr. Jana Bellin at 2250).

[•Note - the USCF stared using an Elo system for its entire membership from 1960 onwards.]

Of course, both systems have undergone significant changes, since, even with some convergence, but remain separate and distinct.

In my view it is wrong to try to reconcile the two in more than a passing way - just to draw rough, but ready, boundaries and to do approximate conversions of ungraded players with FIDE ratings in order to try to ensure they play in an approprate section.

Unfortuntely it is where some of those approximate converted ratings meet the somewhat arbitrarily chosen boundaries that the most accuracy is required, for both, but is very difficult to achieve.

And, therefore I'd suggest that - in the final analysis - either all measured chess performance in England should be transformed to conform to FIDE requirements (and so become FIDE rated, thus making the ECF grading system increasingly superflous and eventually redundant).

Or, since that is highly unlikely, only ECF grades should be used in England with ENG players' FIDE ratings largely ignored, here.

I believe the reciprocal already happens on the mainland, and elsewhere in the chess world, with foreign federations (usually only operating with just a max. of 2 sections) assigning unrated ENG players a '0' (zero) rating, thereby ignoring any ECF grade!?

In England there seems to be a temporary place for a conversion formula of some kind - with organisers willing to use/convert FIDE ratings for the purpose of defining sections and allocating and pairing ungraded players within some, or other, rough but ready section boundaries.

And, Paul, therein lies the problem - as you struggle to smoothly implement "two systems in one country" when, strictly speaking, only one will really do because although they have similarities they are basically different and cannot be cobbled together, satisfactorily, in an elegant, mainly seamless fashion.

Again, as in other spheres, it may be time to choose between conforming largely to some form of continental metrification, or making a UDI and reverting, almost wholly, to English eccentricity - rather than continuing to persevere, perversely, with a mixture of the two, which I admit is easier said than done.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:08 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:21 pm
although they have similarities they are basically different and cannot be cobbled together, satisfactorily, in an elegant, mainly seamless fashion.
For those playing exclusively in the 4NCL and FIDE rated tournaments in England, it's a case of having two different measures of the same results. The Elo side has changed significantly over the last 30 years. The first change was extending male ratings down to 2000. This meant that players graded 160 or above could aspire to International ratings whilst with the 2200 limit, it would have been players 185 plus. It ran for a number of years like this and the effect on players at the then lower end of the International spectrum was that their International rating exceeded their English grade on most plausible conversion calculations.

It's now the other way round with many International ratings below their ECF equivalents. I suspect that isn't the case yet for players who mostly or exclusively compete in senior events.

One reason for this was the extension of the International ratings down to 1000, which enabled improving juniors to get International ratings that were well out of date. The protection that not counting poor results against lower rated players was removed. That was coupled with changes on the ECF side. Treating juniors as new players regardless of their experience had the effect of removing effects from their lower out of date grades whilst the ECF revaluation exercise had the effect of pushing the average player whether by median or average up by 20 to 25 ECF grading points.

If an organiser takes the view that ECF grades are a better measure of ranking than International ratings, then section limits can be set by reference to ECF grades and accept the slight randomisation that doing pairings by reference to International ratings might generate. It wouldn't be appropriate to do this for a genuinely international tournament such as the London Classic Open or Hastings, but it may well be for a domestic weekender.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:13 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:08 pm
If an organiser takes the view that ECF grades are a better measure of ranking than International ratings, then section limits can be set by reference to ECF grades and accept the slight randomisation that doing pairings by reference to International ratings might generate. It wouldn't be appropriate to do this for a genuinely international tournament such as the London Classic Open or Hastings, but it may well be for a domestic weekender.
Why not also do the pairings by reference to ECF grades, so long as it is not a title tournament?

John McKenna

Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by John McKenna » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:17 pm

Warning - last year I played in a weekend tournament, in which my section was paired by FIDE rating, and I did not have time to look up two of my junior opponents' ECF grades, which turned out to be significantly higher than mine while their FIDE ratings were significantly lower than mine.

If I'd had the full picture I'd have played differently against them and may even have got a different score to a brace of ducks!?

Also, most probably, the pairings would have been different if grades had been used instead if ratings to do them.

A (gradual/rapid?) move towards a clearer, simpler and more standard form of tournament parameters would help avoid the confusion that can arise from having too many variables in play before you even begin a game.

Above, some seem to be in favour of continuing with a form of the grading-rating halfway house, but for how long?

NickFaulks
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:43 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:17 pm
If I'd had the full picture I'd have played differently against them
Sorry, John, but I have to say that if you were trying to play the ( perceived ) opponent rather than the position, then you deserved what you got.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:02 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:43 pm
John McKenna wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:17 pm
If I'd had the full picture I'd have played differently against them
Sorry, John, but I have to say that if you were trying to play the ( perceived ) opponent rather than the position, then you deserved what you got.
... but the position you aim for may well vary depending on the strength of the opponent, e.g. if you're playing someone much stronger than you are you might aim for a sharp position in the hope they make a tactical oversight. If you're playing someone much weaker than you are you might aim for a quiet position where you hope to grind them down in the end.

John Swain
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by John Swain » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:27 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:02 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:43 pm
John McKenna wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:17 pm
If I'd had the full picture I'd have played differently against them
Sorry, John, but I have to say that if you were trying to play the ( perceived ) opponent rather than the position, then you deserved what you got.
... but the position you aim for may well vary depending on the strength of the opponent, e.g. if you're playing someone much stronger than you are you might aim for a sharp position in the hope they make a tactical oversight. If you're playing someone much weaker than you are you might aim for a quiet position where you hope to grind them down in the end.

This approach, with which I agree, is very much in accord with the excellent advice found in Simon Webb's classic Chess for Tigers. See especially chapter 2 "Play the man - not the board", chapter 5 "How to catch Rabbits" and chapter 6 "How to trap Heffalumps".

John McKenna

Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by John McKenna » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:29 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:43 pm
John McKenna wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:17 pm
If I'd had the full picture I'd have played differently against them
Sorry, John, but I have to say that if you were trying to play the ( perceived ) opponent rather than the position, then you deserved what you got.

Nick, although I tend to agree with Ian T and John S in general, I think you may be right in the particular case of mine that I raised, above.

The important question of whether to "play the man, or the board" seems to have swung firmly towards "the man" in these days of big data, and away from "the board" in the old days of sparse data.

I'll have to look at the games (and other details), again, try to confirm the lingering suspicion I retain that I was waiting for a series of mistakes that never came...

Never came from my young opponents that is, and must have come from me instead. All I knew about my opponents was their low FIDE ratings and read far, far, too much into that, so did deserve what I got for underestimating them.

Paul McKeown
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Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:52 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:21 pm
You seem dissatisfied with Stewart's, above, response - perhaps because he refuses to cooperate, here, in trying to get the two systems to come closer together and kind of agree more with each other in a better/best possible fit?
I would prefer it if you were not to put words into my mouth, as I have said nothing of the sort.
Stewart Reuben wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:38 pm
Why does anyybody expect the ECF Grade to coincide precisely with a FIDE Rating and that to wrok wih different numbers?
My classification of this as a strawman, is that absolutely no one has pretended this to be true.

As for the rest of the faux intellectual screed about an Englishman's moat being La Manche, or whatever, I'll ignore.

John McKenna

Re: Rating/grading bounds correlations

Post by John McKenna » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:42 pm

Hi Paul,

I did say... perhaps because...

Not quite putting the words that followed in your mouth.

We all risk ignoring things at our peril - as I know only too well.

John

PS Thanks for a thought-provoking thread - another sign of the though-provoking times we live in, perhaps.Though there's hardly a question you can ask, any longer, without someone, like me, opening the proverbial can... I'll put a lid on it here and now. Adieu

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