FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

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JustinHorton
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:11 am

How would a player "use" as a note, source of information or advice, having written "resigns", or "0-1", etc, on their scoresheet?
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Alex McFarlane
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Alex McFarlane » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:54 am

I have seen players writing 0-1(or 1-0) to indicate that the opponent should resign!

Perhaps not notes as such but certainly a distraction to the opponent if he sees it and to the surrounding players when the opponent reacts to it!!!

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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:10 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:11 am
How would a player "use" as a note, source of information or advice, having written "resigns", or "0-1", etc, on their scoresheet?
Let's think about what FIDE does legislate.
8.1.4 The scoresheet shall be used only for recording the moves, the times of the clocks, offers of a draw, matters relating to a claim and other relevant data.
Anything that is not concerned with recording the game and claims is thus forbidden from being written on a scoresheet.
8.1.2 It is forbidden to write the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw according to Article 9.2, or 9.3 or adjourning a game according to Guidelines I.1.1
If a player writes "resigns" on the scoresheet, thinks about it, and then continues playing, they surely have written down what they intended to do, and then did something different. Which is forbidden. And that process also breaches 11.3.1, the prohibition against notes and analysis.

What is writing "resigns" on the scoresheet?

It is an evaluation of the position at the least, if it is not a statement of resignation. And that is a note. It doesn't matter what use is made of it. It is forbidden. It also is liable to distract the opponent. Which is also forbidden.

And, in any case, it is in fact a statement of resignation, making the rest moot.

In the case of an inexperienced, young player, I'm not going to get all Medieval about the matter. If the opponent had pointed it out, then I would have made the resignation stand. As the opponent didn't, best as an arbiter not to intervene until afterwards, and certainly in the case of a youngster.

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JustinHorton
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:10 am
And that is a note. It doesn't matter what use is made of it. It is forbidden.
Maybe, but do the Laws of Chess actually say that notes cannot be made or that use cannot be made of them? (It's not an entirely rhetorical question - different versions can be found and I'm not always sure I'm using the latest. But that, at any rate, is why I phrased my posting as I did.)

Obviously we're to some extent in the realm of pedantry here, but not completely. I don't think that writing 0-1 on the scoresheet is necessarily a note in quite the sense that writing (say) 29...Qh5 would be a note, not least because I don't think that resignation is a move as such. So there is at least space to consider whether we should treat it differently, sui generis if you like.

I absolutely take the point about it being a distraction.
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:43 am

https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012018 wrote:11.3.1 During play the players are forbidden to use any notes, sources of information or advice, or analyse any game on another chessboard.
If the player writes "resigns" and then thinks about it and then scribbles it out and writes down a move, then it was a note. It was used to crystallise the player's thoughts. Not allowed.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Michael Farthing » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:32 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 am
Obviously we're to some extent in the realm of pedantry here, but not completely.
Indeed, my post that brought this into play was intended to be jocularly pedantic.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:55 pm

LOL, I can see it's only a matter of time before this thread starts to consider whether writing, "Remember to buy dog biscuits on the way home", is an offence if written on the scoresheet - and is the back of the scoresheet still a scoresheet? - but not if written on a separate piece of paper.

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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:12 pm

"LOL, I can see it's only a matter of time before this thread starts to consider whether writing, "Remember to buy dog biscuits on the way home", is an offence if written on the scoresheet - and is the back of the scoresheet still a scoresheet? - but not if written on a separate piece of paper."

I think you're not allowed any written (etc.) notes anywhere.

How can anyone get so involved in the game they forget to buy dog food!?

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:27 pm

Well, making notes about things that need doing is sometimes a method used by people (with varying degrees of success) to 'clear' their mind so they can concentrate on what they are currently doing (e.g. playing a game of chess). But I don't think people want to go down the route of arguing that various mental techniques have to be restricted to what can be done at the board in your head, do they? Is it forbidden to get up and stretch your legs and get some fresh air if you are feeling a bit 'slow' and need to clear your head? People that go and smoke or eat during a game are arguably also improving their ability to think (or something similar for smokers). I have seen people do crossword puzzles while waiting for their opponent to move. If done at the board, it could be (is) a distraction, but what if done away from the board?

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:35 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:55 pm
LOL, I can see it's only a matter of time before this thread starts to consider whether writing, "Remember to buy dog biscuits on the way home", is an offence if written on the scoresheet - and is the back of the scoresheet still a scoresheet? - but not if written on a separate piece of paper.
You jest, but didn't Wesley So get (in)famously disqualified for writing stuff on his scoresheet that wasn't about chess as such?
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JustinHorton
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:52 pm

But it was specifically advice to himself on how to play, it wasn't stuff like Phone Mom When The Game Is Over.
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Roger Lancaster
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:54 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:35 pm
You jest, but didn't Wesley So get (in)famously disqualified for writing stuff on his scoresheet that wasn't about chess as such?
Correct, I jested. You're also correct, and I wasn't aware of this, about Wesley So once being disqualified. A more-or-less contemporary account says

An extremely unusual thing happened at the start of the 9th round of the US Championship. According to chief arbiter Tony Rich, he was approached by Varuzhan Akobian, and told that the latter's opponent, Wesley So, was writing something down on a piece of paper underneath his scoresheet. Earlier in the tournament, the arbiter had twice warned So, who has a habit of writing little notes to himself, unrelated to the game itself.

It's probably fair to say that So was disqualified more for repeatedly disregarding the arbiter's warnings than for the offence itself.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:56 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:35 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:55 pm
LOL, I can see it's only a matter of time before this thread starts to consider whether writing, "Remember to buy dog biscuits on the way home", is an offence if written on the scoresheet - and is the back of the scoresheet still a scoresheet? - but not if written on a separate piece of paper.
You jest, but didn't Wesley So get (in)famously disqualified for writing stuff on his scoresheet that wasn't about chess as such?
I can't find the detailed reporting on what the notes were about, but something like "notes of encouragement to himself", presumably something like motivational notes.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/che ... ships.html

"So had been writing motivational messages to himself on his score sheet in earlier rounds and twice been warned not to by the arbiter.

In round nine, So used a separate piece of paper to write: "Double Check and triple check" and "use your time"."

"Earlier notes that So had written to himself, still visible on the original score sheets which are handed to arbiter at the end of the game said "Use your time you have a lot of it" and "Sit down for the entire game. Never get up"."

It has also been described as "general encouragement and advice to himself".

https://blog.chessbomb.com/2015/04/wesl ... und-9.html

https://gregshahade.wordpress.com/2015/ ... -happened/

"At the end of the day it’s clear that all of the chaos began due to Wesley’s relatively insane insistence on continuing to write hilariously adorable inspirational notes to himself during his game. I really wish the rules were different and this kind of behavior would be encouraged, but sadly it’s not. What a cruel cruel world the chess world is."

David Sedgwick
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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:02 pm

The episode was discussed on here at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7319.

I agree with the comments of Ian Thompson and Nick Faulks on Page 2.

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Re: FIDE Laws - An Interesting Case

Post by Nick Grey » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:51 pm

Never shake hands. May be taken to be I resign, I agree a draw, or I accept your resignation.

I think I ought not to knock over my king to resign anymore. Especially when I'm on a live board.

I still have no idea why the anti-cheating device went off LCC round 6 other than my jeans have a metal sip and studs in the pocket.

I note my blood sugars readings and or insulin units injected - where else can I record as I can't go back to a bag?

Of course after a particular game I may make notes to myself for future reference - e.g. FFEHT...five finger exploding heart technique.

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