World Youth Championships

National developments, strategies and ideas.
Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 3268
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:51 am

"By combining several of these variable locations in the genome, scientists can say with very high confidence that a match between a DNA profile found at a crime scene and the profile of a suspect are not the same simply by chance."

Yes - unfortunately, some early DNA "evidence" was based on a simple screening test, not the whole series of tests. But the jury had read in the newspapers that DNA tests were always right. Think too of the unreliable cheap drug-screening tests that are sold to parents trying to find if their children take drugs. Don't buy those test kits - they don't work.

"As far as the reluctance of Chessexshire to get involved is concerned, I am absolutely sure Alex is right on this and that basically these guys won't want to do anything if they can avoid it."

Also yes - I recall a case where a player went to the arbiter to complain that the opponent was getting advice from other players. The response? "Do you realise that's a very serious accusation?" That was a very clear-cut case, the method was clear, the witnesses agreed it happened. No action was taken against the cheat or assistants. So Justin is right (as is Alex) - if people do nothing in that scenario, what will they do if there are complaints that someone is playing too well and therefore must be cheating, but nobody knows how?

And of course the complaint that somebody is playing too well might well have an innocent explanation. I've heard complaints when someone is losing to a lower-rated player that the lower-rated player must be a cheat. Then you see how badly the higher-rated player has conducted the opening and realise why he's losing...

NickFaulks
Posts: 5442
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:52 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:10 am
I do not think we have much risk of banning innocent players.
Haven't chess.com made us wary of such general comments?

John McKenna
Posts: 3883
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by John McKenna » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:35 am

I see my ill-considered comment will have to suffice.then as there's "No" comment on Gina Miller (whose '"grift" I've been following) -
JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:30 am
No, my comments about Ball, whose grift I've been following from the starr, are applicable solely to him...

SNIP

Aa far as the relucrtance of Chessexshire... SNIP ... Chess in England is dominated by stubborn old men....

SNIP

"You are old," said the youth, "and your jaws are too weak
For anything tougher than suet;
Yet you finished the goose, with the bones and the beak -
Pray, how did you manage to do it?"

"In my youth," said his father, "I took to the law,
And argued each case with my wife;
And the muscular strength, which it gave to my jaw, Has lasted the rest of my life."
The law - like this forum - still remains almost all jaw, jaw...

I trust that will leave you laughing...

However, I'll end on a more serious quote -
Statistical thinking will one day be as necessary for efficient citizenship as the ability to read and write.
(Obviously that day is yet to come.)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Paul Cooksey
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:52 am
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:10 am
I do not think we have much risk of banning innocent players.
Haven't chess.com made us wary of such general comments?
Not really. I think chess.com demonstrated you cannot make an arbitrary decision and refuse to hear any evidence and still hope to make good decisions. We would need to do better than that. But it does not seem a high bar.

I suppose chess.com is more difficult because of the vast number of users and games. It does not seem impractical for the ECF to have the kind of 2 hour review with a strong player assessment process discussed up thread.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 7200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:28 am

But again, how robust a procedure would a layperson perceive that to be?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Paul Cooksey
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:47 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:28 am
But again, how robust a procedure would a layperson perceive that to be?
I'm not sure I have a good answer yet. I have been thinking about Jonathan Rogers' posts and I hope I can work out an answer that at least I am comfortable with.

I am pretty sure I cannot build an ECF process that is so good it would be accepted as proving cheating beyond all reasonable doubt, without a confession or a smoking gun picture of a phone in a toilet or similar. I am pretty sure I could build a process that would convince a reasonably neutral and competent judge that the ECF handles allegations of cheating, and imposes sanctions, fairly.

Johnathan's question about how would you deal with a potential libel actions is probably the sort of thing that comes immediately to mind if you have read a book on jurisprudence in the last 25 years, which I have not. I suppose we are in the area of qualified privilege. I'm not a big fan of analogies between sports and chess. But I thought in this case I would check how sports, CAS, etc handle it.

Jonathan Rogers
Posts: 4009
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:26 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:20 pm

I'd be interested to hear what you find. But on the matter of alleged cheating or other misconduct without any direct eyewitness testimony, you might struggle to find analogies (perhaps ball tampering in cricket?). Alleged betting scams are probably the most likely analogy, where just too much is said to be coincidental.

I am no specialist myself, and this strikes me as a minefield, not least because we are assuming the ECF as a defendant in a hypothetical defamation or other unspecified case, but the local league might well be the first body in line and they surely have no interest whatever in being involved in any lawsuit. This is a problem we have not said much about: who can blame them, if that is their position - they want a quiet life playing chess in the peaceful south west? Yet if they don't do anything, eg install further measures, the integrity of the whole ECF grading list may be undermined in the perspective of many.

All of which suggests that it is the proper business of the ECF as well.

And a further point: suppose that local leagues are at risk of being joint defendants (or even sole defendants) in defamation suits when suspected cheaters are banned or otherwise publicly implicated (if that is possible, I repeat that I am no specialist here) perhaps they will only share information with the ECF or otherwise implicate a suspect in public if there is some kind of indemnity agreement, that the ECF will reimburse legal costs if the league has acted in a certain responsible way. That might be defensible, of course. The logic would be that undetectable cheaters are a nuisance to the chess community, and where we cannot prove the cheating we might lose a court case, but the cost should come from ECF funds rather than fall on anyone else and this could be reflected in ECF membership fees. And, the suspected cheat may well not sue if the league and ECF are seen to be acting together.

Alas this too is not the end of it: a successful litigant, having proved defamation might now have to be reinstated on the grading list, since maintaining the previous position would be a fresh defamation. I am not sure what to say about that. I can only repeat that the acknowledgement of responsibility from the ECF would at least encourage greater action from local leagues and that would be a start.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 7200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:47 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:20 pm
we are assuming the ECF as a defendant in a hypothetical defamation or other unspecified case, but the local league might well be the first body in line and they surely have no interest whatever in being involved in any lawsuit.
My feeling on this is that you'd want a reporting structure, so that decisions as to who should actually be barred from ECF-graded games would be taken by the ECF.

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:20 pm

This is a problem we have not said much about
Pretty sure I have, above
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:20 pm

who can blame them, if that is their position - they want a quiet life playing chess in the peaceful south west?
Should they be shown to have acted negligently in the present situation, I reckon I will, at least
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:20 pm

I am not sure what to say about that. I can only repeat that the acknowledgement of responsibility from the ECF would at least encourage greater action from local leagues
Well it might, but making it clear to local leagues that they also have a responsibility might also be required.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 3268
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:14 pm

"And a further point: suppose that local leagues are at risk of being joint defendants (or even sole defendants) in defamation suits when suspected cheaters are banned or otherwise publicly implicated (if that is possible, I repeat that I am no specialist here) perhaps they will only share information with the ECF or otherwise implicate a suspect in public if there is some kind of indemnity agreement, that the ECF will reimburse legal costs if the league has acted in a certain responsible way."

Another good point. In a case to which I have previously alluded, a guilty party threatened legal action if anyone said anything unpleasant about him. So the committee "investigating" more or less licked his feet in their report and announced that the report had been checked for libel. Not very well, it has to be said, as the report libelled other people. But those people hadn't threatened the committee...

I was speaking about libel in general to an expert in law, he said libel cases in particular tend to produce random results, so it was probably not worth spending money suing people for libel. But of course some people will do just that.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 2232
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:30 pm

This rather old article still makes interesting reading - https://en.chessbase.com/post/a-history ... -in-che-3-. It's notable that there was plenty of circumstantial evidence that the player was getting computer assistance, including evidence of him purchasing the equipment, but no proof by him being caught in the act. The German chess federation decided to ban him, but the German prosecutor decided there was insufficient evidence to prosecute him for embezzlement.

I believe it was reported elsewhere that Allwermanns spent more on the equipment he bought than he won in prize money.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 7200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:58 pm

That's a very useful read indeed.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Matt Bridgeman
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:25 pm

A Friday evening win over a 183 rated player in the Dorset League, using increment only. This was the match report;

'Ringwood A fielded a stronger team than expected and it was a very welcome return for Stephen Deall on board 1. The match was very competitive. Not entirely sure what was happening on the top board but did hear Stephen remark that it was a very interesting / exciting game at one point. Declan, in his normal style, didn't worry about his core base time of one hour, relying solely on his 30 second increments. He managed to find a very good tactic early on and then seemed to be in cruise control. Stephen fought very bravely but by move 29 when he was material down in a difficult position, he lost on time.'
http://ecflms.org.uk/lms/node/49241

Leonard Barden
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:21 am

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Leonard Barden » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:23 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:25 pm
A Friday evening win over a 183 rated player in the Dorset League, using increment only.
That was actually for Southbourne in the Bournemouth and District League, not for Highcliffe which is Declan's club in the Dorset League.

We still have to come: Dorchester v Highcliffe (Thu 20 Feb) and

Southbourne v Poole (Fri 6 March)

before the Dorset Rapidplay (6 rounds, £200 first prize, 75 players, top seed GM Matthew Turner, No2 seed Declan) on Sunday 15 March, which happens to be the Ides of March....

Pete Heaven
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:47 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Pete Heaven » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:12 am

The match description gives me a vivid recollection of a rapid game I played about 30 years ago in which my opponent took 8 minutes on the game, a very exciting game in which I had little idea what was happening. My opponent seemed to find tactic after tactic but, unlike the Southbourne game, I just managed to resign before losing on time, material down in a hopeless position.

My opponent was a 16 or 17 year old called Mickey Adams. I also recall getting slaughtered in the brief post-mortem. That appears to be the only difference between the 2 players. We're still waiting for reports on Declan's post-mortem skills.

John McKenna
Posts: 3883
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: World Youth Championships

Post by John McKenna » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:28 am

"That appears to be the only difference between the 2 players... "

Appearances can be deceptive.

I'll believe it when I see -

Declan Lovelock: Development of a Grand...
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Locked