Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

[John McKenna]

This at least was on topic -

Pontus Carlsson

From which -

Avrukh controversy -

It was earlier this week that Carlsson faced plain denial of systemic racism from the well-known Israeli grandmaster Boris Avrukh, who moved to the U.S. a few years ago and now lives in Rolling Meadows, Illinois. He is mostly known for his opening books for Quality Chess.

A comment by Avrukh responding to Carlsson on Facebook raised many eyebrows and was shared and discussed outside the platform. Avrukh wrote:

"I want to hear from you one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources than CNN trash. Yes, I do think Black people have equal rights and even more than equal rights."

I still see no "plain denial of systemic racism", per se, in Avrukh's statement.

Anyway, what is "systemic racism"?

Dictionary definitions of those 2 words are - systemic: affecting the body generally & racism: a belief that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

So, what body are we talking about here? Let's say that it's the body politic then Nazi Germany, or South Africa under apartheid, could be characterised as systemically racist.)

*See below for a footnote on the concept and theory of "systemic racism" that has been built by academics in America and then ask yourself - how does it apply to the UK, which (unlike the US) was not founded as a slave society.

Instead of "systemic racism" it would be better to speak of systematic (methodical in procedure or plan) racism in certain institutions in the UK & US, societies which are nowhere near being systemically racist,

Not a word about the "Avrukh controversy" in the article from P. Carlsson himself. (However, there was a quote from a female member of the English chess community that did nobody any favours not even herself.)

Though there is this which is relevant -

Carlsson was born in Cali, Colombia. At the age of one, he lost his entire family and was adopted by Swedish parents. His stepfather, Ingvar Carlsson, is a former chairman of the Swedish Chess Federation.

I wonder what would have become of him if that adoption had not happened.

I'd say he ended up with a better start in life than most people alive today, including myself, despite the gratuitous racism he has undoubtedly encountered and will most probably continue to encounter in Europe because some still subscribe to old prejudices at work there. (E.g. Nazism in Sweden -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_in_Sweden

Nazi ideology never took hold to any significant extent in the UK and US because, being basically Anglo-Saxon nations in origin, anything too Germanic has to be diametrically opposed.)

If it ever comes to my attention that Carlsson has said something in reply to Avrukh's comment I'll say something more about it, perhaps

Until then I will retain the concept that class trumps race - as can clearly still be seen in the UK though somewhat less clearly in the US where ex-President Obama is living proof that the United States was until recently following in the footsteps of Abraham Lincoln - he who freed the slaves (but before you think Lincoln was a saint take a look back in history at his policies and their actions directed at Native Americans -

https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/ ... americans/

The Snyder Act of 1924 admitted Native Americans born in the U.S. to full U.S. citizenship. Women received voting rights in 1920, but not Native American women.)

*A note about the sociological concept and theory of "systemic racism" (I should have thought the premise on which it is based - see below - is a self-evident truth but the concept and theory built upon it are far from that. About as far away as the United States of America under President Obama was from where it was in 1776.)

Systemic racism is both a theoretical concept and a reality. As a theory, it is premised on the research-supported claim that the United States was founded as a racist society

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

[J T Melsom]

I've just stopped reading ...

[John McKenna]

Too much for you to handle in your onward rush to judgement.

[J T Melsom]

I've stopped reading because you don't seem to have any genuine interest in the issue of racism in chess. My advice to you and others who are indifferent to the issue is that it is better not to comment, than comment in a tangential way that might let people reach less favourable conclusions about you. I'm saying no more because I've no desire to involve the moderators, by crossing any lines. 'Onward rush to judgement' really is daft.

[MJMcCready]

Racism is no big thing in England, come and live in Asia, it's at least a thousand times worse. It's importance has been heightened because its of more interest for media corporations and is a welcome break from Covid. What, speaking as a philosopher, really ought be discussed here is whether the model of democracy Britain purports to uphold is a healthy and functioning example of what democracy should be, which frankly is not a difficult question to answer. Has improved as a model of democracy since WW2, and what about those who rise through the ranks? You have 0.0000000000000001 seconds to conclude upon your deliberated answers.

[J T Melsom]

The debate on the merit of democratic systems belongs in a thread of its own which you are welcome to start.
The extent of racism elsewhere doesn't mean it shouldn't be challenged in Great Britain.
This thread actually started with discussion of an exchange between a Columbian born Swedish national and a chess player born in Kazakhstan, affiliated to Israel and resident in the United States.

[John McKenna]

I've stopped reading because you don't seem to have any genuine interest in the issue of racism in chess. My advice to you and others who are indifferent to the issue is that it is better not to comment, than comment in a tangential way that might let people reach less favourable conclusions about you. I'm saying no more because I've no desire to involve the moderators, by crossing any lines. 'Onward rush to judgement' really is daft.

I agree that it was a bit of a daft rush to judgement in your first post on this topic -

I don't suppose Avrukh has been directly challenged about these words? It certainly doesn't look good.
Does FIDE actually have a means to deal with racism inside or outside competition? Who would be permitted to complain?
I believe the ECF may have utilised Avrukh to coach the Olympiad team in the past. Although that came from sponsorship money, would ECF members be able to say that we didn't wish to employ Avrukh in future?
I'm just a bit unsure what the chess community can actually do.

I.e. What can we do to censure Avrukh over this?

If it will make you any happier I'll not post anymore on this topic unless someone posts what Carlsson himself has to say in reply to Avrukh. (I hope you understand that I am not a supporter of Avrukh or what he said - in fact he was wrong to ask for "one example". Nor am I against Carlsson no matter what reply he does, or does not, make. I am really mainly interested in the semantics and their effect on people in terms of how they react to them.)

By the bye, I believe the Peter Doggers' article (linked to by Justin H) said that part of the problem Pontus Carlsson had crossing European borders was that he was travelling on a Columbian passport.

[JustinHorton]

Racism is no big thing in England

Uh huh

Anyway, what is "systemic racism"?

It's not the first time I've said something similar on this forum, but this is a debate that's been going on, in public, for the adult lifetime of even the older posters on this forum, and if you need to ask questions like this now, you should probably have been paying attention a lot earlier. Maybe it would be a good time to do that, to find out why people are saying the things they're saying, to read about the experiences people who are not white have had, living in a society like ours. You're not obliged to agree with everything that's said, but it is pretty much the bare minimum to do that, rather than this what-are-people-talking-about-I've-never-heard-of-this reaction which is far too characteristic of sections of society, like the chess community, which are predominately made up of older white guys.

Shorter me: do some research.

[John McKenna]

Excuse me, Justin H(amlet), but there's more in heaven and earth than dreamed of in your philosophy.

And, if you read what I posted at the top of this page you'll see I included a minimum amount of my research from the links I supplied.

Have you seen, or asked Pontus C for, a reply to Boris A?

If so, please, do let let on and I'll gladly return here.

[MJMcCready]

Systemic Racism is for gimps and annoying gits only. Racism is not a big issue in Europe, its conflated because Europeans think its clever to complain about things and have conditioned yourself to never listen to any replies. Some people are more of a pain up the bum than others but in the past we used to love killing them and their tribe. The alternatives in modern age are a bit silly in comparison...

[JustinHorton]

Racism is not a big issue in Europe

Uh huh

[John McKenna]

A meeting of minds??

Not on your life!!

[Tomis Chagall]

I saw that there were references to it when Tunisia denied a young Israeli girl a visa in order to take part in the World School Championship. After pressure from FIDE, they backpedalled:
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/sports ... tournament
But again, this was not a case where an individual’s actions were sanctioned or under scrutiny.

Quote from an earlier post. FIDE takes action when institutions are involved, when there are cheating accusations and the like. In regard to racist behavior or statements by players or officials there is not much to be found.

There’s also a very simple solution: Black moves first.
https://www.moveforequality.com/

By the number of downvotes and the turned off comments, it seems that many people didn’t quite get it …
https://youtu.be/VPFI3-W8Fqo

Had previously posted the link to the website and to the video mentioned in the article on chess.com for which Justin provided the link -- what strikes me is that there are almost as many negative votes for the video on youtube are there are positive ones, and the comments have been turned off. How can a simple symbolic move generate so much vitriol when it has even been common in the past (it most famous example being the »immortal game« by Anderssen vs Kieseritzky)? Insane how easily people are triggered and it’s speaking volumes about them.

I do admit I’d love a PGN of that game between the two!

The Chess Drum has been accused of being racist as far back as 2007, from a certain Javier Gil representing Australia—I like the accuser’s train of thought:

https://www.thechessdrum.net/65thSquare ... aug07.html
»I find your site very offensive and racist, and I think a lot of other people do also. But most of all, your site saddens me enormously. Is this what you understand by putting into practice Martin's Luther's teachings? I'm shocked. You're doing just the opposite.

Your comparison with my country links doesn't stand to logic: those links are there to help people find information on chess in their given area and have nothing to do with race.«

So there we have someone who screams »racism« because a website focuses on African and »black« players. This is the same train of thought that claims »All Lives Matter«, failing to realize that it’s not mutually exclusive with »Black Lives Matter«. The accuser in question feels entitled to define what is racist and what not, using a perceived stance of moral superiority, but here’s the catch: I am positive he has not been on the receiving end of racist or chauvinist abuse to the extent that would allow him to understand why there is a need for a website like Chess Drum, of all things.

Systemic racism or inherent prejudice — that is often not visible to the one(s) expressing it — is that there is a claim to the authority of interpretation what is racist and what not. In many cases, such claims reflect a structure of power to determine what falls in which category, without granting the other party or differing views the same right or level of importance.

By default, people are more likely to see and acknowledge things or practices if they have experienced them themselves, that is a fact. Unless you have been repeatedly discriminated against on the basis of your looks, your name or any other aspect that has set you apart from the »majority« group, it’s difficult to follow or empathize with people who have experienced such discrimination, it’s human nature and not a criticism per se.

I have experienced such practices and I know it can be very subtle — over the years you develop skills to detect such discrimination and you realize how prevalent it is and how innocuous it seems to someone who has never been on the receiving end.

[John McKenna]

Further to what Tomis has contributed, most recently above, I'd just add that in the Peter Doggers' article Carlsson is quoted as saying (sometime) -

"Be honest to yourself. Accept there is a problem, and make sure you listen to each other. Don't change the topic because it makes you feel uncomfortable. It's OK to feel uncomfortable. Discuss it. It has to be a conversation, not a monologue. Talk to a black friend. Openly. Don't be afraid to speak out. And don't believe it only exists in the U.S."

There is also a link to an interview he did with Chess Drum in 2016 -

https://www.thechessdrum.net/blog/2016/ ... l-climate/

Maybe Carlsson's reply to Avrukh has/will speak for itself.

[Jonathan Bryant]

thanks - I decided not to go too deep into the accompanying comments ....

Probably wise. My feeling is that English chess has a problem dealing with diversity and related issues, online chess has more of a problem than English chess, chess.com and their forums/comments has more of a problem that online chess in general