Sexism in chess

[JustinHorton]

I mean obviously this discussion is a waste of time, because we must know fron experience that any discussion of discrimination and diversity issues in a society mostly composed on old white guys is almost inevitably and almost immediately going to conclude that there's no real problem, that the real discrimination is against them, and that if they get criticised for saying so it's time to start invoking Orwell.

It's almost inevitable, but it's also deeply embarrassing that it's almost inevitable, and it is, on top of that, an illustration of the root and depth of the problem, in the chess community and elsewhere.

[John McKenna]

Steady on, old chap, you might be guilty of "projection" there. (In addition to being another one who cannot answer a question.)

[Paul Cooksey]

As an old white guy, I'm frustrated. (admitted old for the general population not chess...)

I spent several hours deciding whether to post on this topic, and what to say. I said what I though was a significant issue that we could address, and before anyone had responded we were on another page discussing futility. I'm not quite ready to give up yet.

So, I am going to assume John was giving his support to the position Tim expressed rather than just continuing an argument with Justin, and take that point seriously.

It is fair to say I have an agenda in proclaiming my opposition to sexism in chess. Chess is an important part of my life and I believe it would benefit from more women and girls playing. Happy to justify that position in more detail if needed, but I am hoping at some point I am making points simple enough that it is unnecessary to unpack them further.

So, I do not see positive discrimination as a significant issue that needs to be addressed. I would be happy to hear an argument it is if it was made sincerely. I do believe how male chess players interact with young women is an issue, and worth us discussing what we could do to change.

[John McKenna]

Thanks for posting in an attempt to be constructive, Paul. (You always try to do so but not always successfully - through no fault of your own, usually.)

However, II do agree with Justin that "obviously this discussion is a waste of time". I thought it probably would turn out to be so from the time the original poster started it for what in my view was the wrong reason.

[Mick Norris]

As an old white guy, I'm frustrated. (admitted old for the general population not chess...)

I spent several hours deciding whether to post on this topic, and what to say. I said what I though was a significant issue that we could address, and before anyone had responded we were on another page discussing futility. I'm not quite ready to give up yet.

So, I am going to assume John was giving his support to the position Tim expressed rather than just continuing an argument with Justin, and take that point seriously.

It is fair to say I have an agenda in proclaiming my opposition to sexism in chess. Chess is an important part of my life and I believe it would benefit from more women and girls playing. Happy to justify that position in more detail if needed, but I am hoping at some point I am making points simple enough that it is unnecessary to unpack them further.

So, I do not see positive discrimination as a significant issue that needs to be addressed. I would be happy to hear an argument it is if it was made sincerely. I do believe how male chess players interact with young women is an issue, and worth us discussing what we could do to change.

Agree with that Paul, but I don't know how we change that when there are clearly players who don't want to change; open to positive suggestions though

EDIT to correct typo

[John McKenna]

Mick you are another constructivist so good luck to you and that team.

However, I have this to say before I seriously consider whether or not it is worth posting on the forum about anything other than topics to do purely with chess -

I have no interest in arguing with anyone but if everyone just agrees with everything everybody says or remains silent what's the point of a forum? Such a place becomes a club for like-minded people, a parliament with a neutered opposition, or none.

Some on the forum are effectively trying to "no-platform" others by their pejorative manner of posting in reply to anything they do not agree with. They are the ones who start arguments in the hope they can silence any voices they do not like the sound of.

[John McKenna]

JT Melsom's topic here and Jon B's "Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter", that it stems from, are just put up to be agreed with - even though the reason for doing so was the trigger of a single statement - admittedly one that could be construed as racist (among other things) - made by one GM to another GM. As far as I am concerned these are attempts to jump on the bandwagon of outraged protests - looking for scapegoats - that are sweeping the West in the time of plague - much like Bergman's depiction of a society tearing itself apart in The Seventh Seal.

Excuse me I must dance off... with the devil now.

[Tim Spanton]

"Positive discrimination."

All discrimination is positive for some and negative for others - that is the whole point of discriminating

[Matt Bridgeman]

Does anybody know in relation to the English Olympiad teams, in terms of support for attending these events whether the men’s and woman’s teams have equal support for paying for flights, hotels, etc?

[Paul Cooksey]

"Positive discrimination." All discrimination is positive for some and negative for others - that is the whole point of discriminating

I agree. I suppose the reason the term "Positive Action" was preferred in the legislation is that discrimination is a pejorative. I suppose it was easier for the government to use some different words to achieve their aim of allowing it where they felt justified. If you care deeply about language this might be upsetting, but I usually side with the pragmatists myself.

I can live with some unfairness to male players, including myself, if it increases the participation of women. I know there is an argument Positive Action is not in fact unfair to men, given it is only balancing their other advantages. But it is not necessary to believe that true to think the outcome is worth the cost.

So:

Agree with that Paul, but I don't know how we chnage that when there are clearly players who don't want to change; open to positive suggestions though

I generally stay away from the "not chess" topics. But I decided since I was surprised when I heard about the experiences of young women I would post. I believe the axiom the first step to solving a problem is identifying it. This forum has good reach amongst the English chess establishment, and if all I achieve is small increase in awareness, that is fine.

That a young woman might have to say "no, thank you" twenty times during a chess event was a surprise to me. Maybe it should not have been, but it was. So it seemed worth sharing in case others in the old white men demographic were also surprised.

It might not be obvious to teenage boys that this is not a normal social situation. Asking a girl who shares your interests to collaborate on a TikTok meme, or whatever young people do when they like each other these days, is usually fine. But you need to think about whether this is going ruin someones day, because they are being asked constantly. Maybe this is a thing it is appropriate for coaches to talk about, maybe they do already, maybe they should not. I am not qualified to answer, but I am asking those who are to think about it.

[Roger de Coverly]

Does anybody know in relation to the English Olympiad teams, in terms of support for attending these events whether the men’s and woman’s teams have equal support for paying for flights, hotels, etc?

The international Director, Malcolm Pein, would know. Whenever challenged, he has not been forthcoming about the split of the International team expenditure. Olympiads pay for basic hotel accommodation and sometimes subsidise flights. I would think it unlikely that the women's team, most of whom are amateurs, receive the same participation fees as the men. The same would apply to subsidised participation in the British Championship.

[David Sedgwick]

Does anybody know in relation to the English Olympiad teams, in terms of support for attending these events whether the men’s and woman’s teams have equal support for paying for flights, hotels, etc?

The international Director, Malcolm Pein, would know. Whenever challenged, he has not been forthcoming about the split of the International team expenditure. Olympiads pay for basic hotel accommodation and sometimes subsidise flights. I would think it unlikely that the women's team, most of whom are amateurs, receive the same participation fees as the men. The same would apply to subsidised participation in the British Championship.

I can't speak for now, but when I was BCF International Director from 1995 to 1999, the two teams were treated equally in respect of the items which you (Matt) mention, but the players in the Open Team received higher fees. Those players would have had higher earnings potential at other events.

It might be different in countries where the Women's Team are serious medal contenders but the Open Team are not.

[Nick Burrows]

That a young woman might have to say "no, thank you" twenty times during a chess event was a surprise to me.

What was the question asked?

[Jonathan Bryant]

Chess is an important part of my life and I believe it would benefit from more women and girls playing.

Without disagreeing with the central point, I think it important to remember that when we talk about increasing the number of women / girls playing chess we mean ... the way we play (tournament or club chess).

If you go* to something like Casual Chess the demographic is very different to what you’d see on at a league match or tournament.

Some of the reasons why go beyond the chess world. I’m not sure I’m convinced they all do.





* I’m assuming perhaps optimistically that it will one day be possible to return to both

[Paul Cooksey]

That a young woman might have to say "no, thank you" twenty times during a chess event was a surprise to me.

What was the question asked?

I suppose it varies. But I remember one well known player saying something like "Yeah #metoo, boys were constantly hitting on me".

I don't want to pretend I am an expert, and these are not my own experiences. I disagree with a lot of what is said on the Casual Chess group. So I am probably not the right person to advocate their views. But hearing what feminists think about chess was useful to me.

Without disagreeing with the central point, I think it important to remember that when we talk about increasing the number of women / girls playing chess we mean ... the way we play (tournament or club chess).

I would go a bit further and include online. I became a bit less tolerant in chats online a few years ago. Hearing Fanou Lefebvre's experience changed my behaviour from just ignoring the idiots posting crude comments to notifying a moderator instead.

More recently Anna Rudolf talked about her experiences streaming. Whenever she streams she gets some unwanted sexual comments, and depending on her mood sometimes they upset her. I believe that most male chess players are decent people and think that is wrong. I also believe if we are not tolerant of it it will happen less.