Pedants United

[MJMcCready]

Similarly in our writing, if we aren't going to bother about it/it's, what other usage are we going to ignore?

Aren't those who set exam standards responsible at least in part for this? I had the impression that when one took exams in the 1960s, that poor spelling and punctuation would be a cause of lost marks even in subjects not directly related to English language or literature.

When did spelling get standardised? I recall that attempting to study Chaucer was almost like reading a foreign language, whereas Shakespeare and the King James bible were comprehensible if archaic in places. But was the spelling of these changed from their first publication in the 1590s and 1600s?

The process of standardization in all its guises is about 800 years long, that's the problem. The bottom line is that language isn't owned by anyone thus develops according to where its spoken. Many people believe that modernity has complexified standardization to the point where it is more often disregarded but many of the points referred to are not new. Texting for example, shortening words for brevities sake, well scribers were doing just that 1000 years ago.

[MJMcCready]

Like all major languages, English absorbs a lot of words from surrounding languages, with at least 60% estimated as French on origin, or the dialect Normandic French to be more specific. Much more so than other major languages, English has imported a lot of foreign words over the years. To say it's a minefield is an understatement.

[David Sedgwick]

complexified

?

for brevities sake

Ouch! ??

[Paul Habershon]

complexified

?

for brevities sake

Ouch! ??

I share your pain, David. However, Mark does have 'subversive' in his byline.

[John McKenna]

At least he avoided "pendantic" (ha-ha) and really offending the effendees here.

He also has a surname that is "Celtic" in origin and should be aware that the "Norman French" was not "imported" into the British Isles like wine, cheese or some other continental consumables.

It arrived in force in the year 1066 aboard an invasion fleet and was enforced upon the dominant Anglo-Saxon English population by (the Norman) conquest.

In the same, or similar way, to how the (Old) English language arrived about half a millenium earlier in a series of smaller invasions - carried on Anglo-Saxon longships, which imposed their (Old) English language on the existing - largely Romano-British - population, which itself had had Latin superimposed upon its British & Celtic tongues - over the course of about half of millenium of occupation - by the legions and officials of Rome, who first arrived in Britain in the incursion led by Caesar and the subsequent invasion done in the name of Claudius.

The Brits & Celts probably imposed themseles and their languages on existing people(s) who were already inhabiting these Isles before the coming of Brits & Celts (the "little prople" of Irish legend may be based on memories of such a "race" who were driven to live in the water margins) from the continent and who's languages are long lost.

That's what is behind the main "import/export" of language(s) hereabout. (Note that it can happen to a lesser, but still very significant degree, without a successful invasion - as in the case of the Japan, which "imported" a fair amount of Chinese language, culture and products over the course of about 2,000 years.)

A more recent example of the relentless progress of the process can be seen in the European invasions and conquest of the "Americas" and "Australasia". (Note that the populations of Africa and Asia were large and strong enough to absorb European Colononialism & Imperialism and mostly spit it out.)

"Thus have we made the world." (And the words used in it.)

Edit - spot the grammatical faux pas, anyone?

Edit - time's up - the plural of effendi is effendis and the possesive of the pronoun who is whose.

[Paul Habershon]

At least he avoided "pendantic" (ha-ha) and really offending the effendees here.

He also has a surname that is "Celtic" in origin and should be aware that the "Norman French" was not "imported" into the British Isles like wine, cheese or some other continental consumables.

It arrived in force in the year 1066 aboard an invasion fleet and was enforced upon the dominant Anglo-Saxon English population by (the Norman) conquest.

In the same, or similar way, to how the (Old) English language arrived about half a millenium earlier in a series of smaller invasions - carried on Anglo-Saxon longships, which imposed their (Old) English language on the existing - largely Romano-British - population, which itself had had Latin superimposed upon its British & Celtic tongues - over the course of about half of millenium of occupation - by the legions and officials of Rome, who first arrived in Britain in the incursion led by Caesar and the subsequent invasion done in the name of Claudius.

The Brits & Celts probably imposed themseles and their languages on existing people(s) who were already inhabiting these Isles before the coming of Brits & Celts (the "little prople" of Irish legend may be based on memories of such a "race" who were driven to live in the water margins) from the continent and who's languages are long lost.

That's what is behind the main "import/export" of language(s) hereabout. (Note that it can happen to a lesser, but still very significant degree, without a successful invasion - as in the case of the Japan, which "imported" a fair amount of Chinese language, culture and products over the course of about 2,000 years.)

A more recent example of the relentless progress of the process can be seen in the European invasions and conquest of the "Americas" and "Australasia". (Note that the populations of Africa and Asia were large and strong enough to absorb European Colononialism & Imperialism and mostly spit it out.)

"Thus have we made the world." (And the words used in it.)

Edit - spot the grammatical faux pas, anyone?

Edit - time's up - the plural of effendi is effendis and the possesive of the pronoun who is whose.

Thanks for this interesting contribution, John. English owes its richness to the diversity of other cultures settling here. I like the evidence that the Normans were the ruling class and so beef (their boeuf) now describes what is on our plate, rather than 'cow', the word of the Anglo-Saxon peasants who had the hard work of producing the stuff.

I had spotted who's/whose but didn't notice or know about effendi. Inevitable pedantic note: if you don't put a double n in millennium you get a different pronunciation, rhyming for instance with proscenium (arch).

[Nick Ivell]

I truly predict a great future for this thread. It has the potential to be more popular than any of the 'chess' stuff.

[Simon Rogers]

Well done Paul for starting this Topic.
Lots of interesting posts.
I wasn't very good at English when I attended school.
I am learning a lot.

[John McKenna]

Thanks for this interesting contribution, John. English owes its richness to the diversity of other cultures settling here. I like the evidence that the Normans were the ruling class and so beef (their boeuf) now describes what is on our plate, rather than 'cow', the word of the Anglo-Saxon peasants who had the hard work of producing the stuff.

I had spotted who's/whose but didn't notice or know about effendi. Inevitable pedantic note: if you don't put a double n in millennium you get a different pronunciation, rhyming for instance with proscenium (arch).

My sincere thanks to Paul H, above, for the informative correction and explanation. (Unlike the missing 'v' not in 'themseles' the missing 'n' is a genuine spelling slip. Probably due to not studying Latin at all nor English enough.)

It reminds me of a couple of worse ones I experienced - while trying to teach English in China I wrote 'fourty' on the board (having studied only sciences post O-level I had a habit of using '40' and cannot recall ever having to spell it) and was immediately corrected by my Chinese co-teacher. In the same school an American colleague left the 'n' out of Wednesday. (His compatriots may get around to doing that officially one day as they seem to prefer to omit silent letters.)

Proper nouns are interesting since place names or the names of local geographical features often remain as an echo of former local languages from the past. E.g. the river Avon or in other words the river River.

Fast forwarding - I never liked living in the times of Chancellor Norman Lamont. It made me rewind to tales in my youth of Hereward the Wake hiding out in the Fens during the Norman persecution of the Saxons.

Finally, reference has been made to the word 'subversive' (subvert: transitive verb - to undermine the power of [from Middle French subvertir]) Is there anything pedantically amiss about the way it has been used in this thread that I am missing?

Edit - I am wrong again - the Yankees should get rid of the silent 'd' & second 'e' from Wednesday and keep the 'n'!

[John Clarke]

A few random comments.

While always trying to uphold standards in my own writing, I’ve long since stopped bothering to correct other people.

The Yankees might decide to drop the ‘d’ in Wednesday, but what would the other 44 states have to say?

There wasn’t one single Anglo-Saxon language any more than there was a single Anglo-Saxon people. The old Wessex tongue spoken by Alfred the Great was markedly different from Mercian, being much more inflected and conservative in its grammatical structure. Mercian ultimately prevailed because it was (a) more flexible and dynamic – rather as English is now compared with other European languages - and (b) happened to be the dialect used in London – then as now a dominant influence over the whole country.

I personally dislike the increasing use of elisions (“haven’t” and the like) in print, even when correctly spelled. But I suppose one has to accept that house styles are becoming more relaxed these days. Even so, I still wince on seeing such horrors as "shouldn't've" in what's supposed to be a soberly worded editorial.

[Kevin Thurlow]

While we are on the millennium, it started on 1/1/2001 (as there was not a year zero...)

I was watching a documentary about life in Australia (entitled "Neighbours") and the Head of the school said, "Between you and I". Surely everyone knows that "between" takes the accusative, so it should be "between you and me".

The Head is called the Principal and that reminds me that I have seen so many references in Estate Agents' literature to "the principle bedroom". You should have principles in bedrooms of course, but it should be "the principal bedroom".

I agree with Nick!

[MJMcCready]

He also has a surname that is "Celtic" in origin and should be aware that the "Norman French" was not "imported" into the British Isles like wine, cheese or some other continental consumables.

It arrived in force in the year 1066 aboard an invasion fleet and was enforced upon the dominant Anglo-Saxon English population by (the Norman) conquest.

Well in certain lesser respects it could be described as an import. In Kent particularly, there were a number of schools where local people could learn what was in retrospect the Norman French dialect of its time. These are noted and written about by several members of the French aristocracy and monarchy, who coming from Paris, claimed they couldn't understand what was being taught.

In terms of French arriving in 1066, well linguistically it became the language which made England a tri-lingual nation at the time, Latin being second. It was the language of the ruling elite, and in general words that are polysyllabic often have come from the French of its day. It remained the language of the government for sometime, courthouses too. The principle reason why that changed and English became the vernacular in governmental buildings was due to the black death. It wiped out all the translators, and so no one could understand anything in acts of law, so they moved over to using English for that.

And yes my name is celtic, something which I am very proud of.

[Paul Habershon]

I was watching a documentary about life in Australia (entitled "Neighbours") and the Head of the school said, "Between you and I". Surely everyone knows that "between" takes the accusative, so it should be "between you and me".

I am sure everyone doesn't know about the accusative, but we should all be able mentally to remove the 'other bit', in this case 'you and', thus
revealing the non-standard nonsense 'between I...'
Similarly 'Kevin and me went shopping' is a perfectly comprehensible and common construction, but 'me went shopping' ........?

However, I do need help with the grammar of the frequent exchange after a knock on the door. "Who is it?" "It's me." Is it really true that 'It is I' is technically correct? If so, pedantry goes a step too far by insisting on it.

[Paul Habershon]

Well done Paul for starting this Topic.
Lots of interesting posts.
I wasn't very good at English when I attended school.
I am learning a lot.

Thank you, Simon.

There is a Saturday 'Times' column called 'Feedback' which invites readers' comments about the newspaper's content. Someone from Hereford thought that SCHENECTADY was an unnecessarily obscure solution to a recent 'Times' cryptic crossword clue. It's a city in New York State. Rose Wild, the Feedback columnist, justified it by describing various achievements of inhabitants of Schenectady, making the point that it's hardly an insignificant place. She concluded with 'Beat that Hereford!'. Now to me that is an instruction to thrash a cow. I do like my vocative commas: 'Beat that, Hereford' because she is addressing the people of Hereford. I sent an email to the column, but there was no acknowledgement the following week. Vocative commas do clarify meaning. 'Do you understand, Rose?'/'Do you understand Rose?' are very different comments.

This was my gentle way, Simon, of suggesting that your first line above should start ''Well done, Paul, for.... '. Don't worry. You have a 'Times' journalist for company!

[Kevin Thurlow]

"Is it really true that 'It is I' is technically correct?"

Yes - but it does look and sound a little odd.

I was joking about everyone knowing the accusative. It helps to have been taught Latin.

I have had telephone conversations which went,

(I answer 'phone)
(Caller) "Who's speaking?"
(Me) "You are"

I was entertained to see,

"The principle reason why that changed..."