Arbiter Question

[MJMcCready]

Hi MJM,

..this site is going down the drains man, it really is. What makes you say that?

My question is perfectly valid. Can a player ask if his DGT Board (live) be switched off (dead.)

Nobody appears to know in spite of the place being infested with arbiters, controllers...

I've either asked the question that must never be asked or they don't know.
It's a simple question, all it requires is a simple answer.

Yes. (thank you)
No. (a reason would be appreciated )

Or I'm in the bad books regarding the sainted arbiters/controllers gang for cracking a joke about one of them.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12240&p=286288&hili ... ve#p286288
I know they have skins as thin as eggshells and very long memories, are they still sulking.

I'm just playing with you bro.

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi MJM,

I thought so at first but then recalled the reaction to Alan (who is now banned.)
I thought maybe you might be going in that direction and I'm next.

Hi Jack,

"it's a tournament-level question, not a laws-level question."

But who does the player ask if not the arbiters and controllers, they run run the whole show. (or do they?)
I started thinking about it due to recent claims that some players play 'better' on DGT boards.
(part of the cheating paranoia which is currently sweeping the planet.)

In the meantime, I'm sorry to put you on the spot Jack.

What would you do if a player at a tournament you were controlling asked that their game not be played on a DGT board.
They feel uncomfortable with it, it is affecting their play, putting them off. It must viewed as a player's complaint
regarding playing conditions and therefore looked into by the controller.

If you are unsure, fair enough, I've no idea at all. If it is vague ground then perhaps something
should be put in place in a way of anticipation because as I can see, due to the current climate,
someone will be asking not to play on a DGT board.

Take your time, my ploy of trying to goad the other arbiters/controllers into giving an answer
needs more time to run. Ploy No1 usually works, we need to let it run for a day or two.
I expect I'll get a few lectures from the holier than thou mob but in amongst them I'll get an answer. (or not)

[David Sedgwick]

Take your time, my ploy of trying to goad the other arbiters/controllers into giving an answer
needs more time to run. Ploy No1 usually works, we need to let it run for a day or two.
I expect I'll get a few lectures from the holier than thou mob but in amongst them I'll get an answer. (or not)

That paragraph exemplifies why I find it hard to take you seriously and why I won't be responding to your question.

[Stewart Reuben]

Geoff >Can a player refuse to play on a DGT board if the game will be going out live, even with a delay?<
The only person who objected to a delay was Makropoulos, then the FIDE Deputy President. He thought it wrong that people in the room were more-up-to-date than those outside. This was accepted by the General Assembly. I should have explained my objections and very likely would have won.
The reason for delaying sending out the moves for perhaps five minutes was that then it would be more difficult to cheat using a computer.
It would however become much easier to cheat bookmakers who provide the opportunity to bet on the next move. But that is rarely done.

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Stewart,

I know a player asked quite a few years ago on the Scottish forum if he could refuse to play on a DGT board.
But I never followed it up and that forum changed it’s appearances losing all the old posts.

'Betting on a move'
Just picked my rank e/way outsiders for Ayr. I do them in trebles/four folds etc.
I cleaned up big time two weeks ago picking a 66/1 winner.
As usual I pick them from what’s going on topically.

Devil’s Angel
Because I playing the devil in this thread.

Barefoot Angel
(see above. I’m really a nice guy but have no shoes.)

Popmaster.
Everyone and their dog is having a pop at masters Niemann, Nakamura and Carlsen.

Rory the Cat.
I like the name.

Gabriel the Devil.
See the first choice.

Willie Hill is paying of 1-4 and 1-6 places in most of them.


Hi David,

Thank you. I’m not sure if your answer was a lecture or a 'I don’t know.'
I’ll do two lists and put this one down on both. (and a wee tick in the ‘ploy No.1 box)

----

Hi everyone else (if you are still here),

I have been in contact with various people (those that answered phones knowing it was me) and
I'll stick to my I won't quote anyone promise. People are so wary, I practically had to put that in writing.

Precedents were cited and how they dealt with. (promise kept.)

Also mentioned in passing;
Murky waters indeed regarding payment for their games going out live. Nothing to do with a TC.
Their agent. (do all of the top chess players have agents?) may have discussed the selling of the players image.
What a can of wriggling worms I opened there. But if the players are 'maybe' getting a cut I'm happy for them.

But I now have a good idea what TC's will do. That is all I wanted to know. Thank you...

...and watch out for your appearances in the next blog! (a joke, that was a joke I won't use it or name anyone.)

[NickFaulks]

That paragraph exemplifies why I find it hard to take you seriously

I'm pretty sure that Geoff would mortified if you did.

[Wadih Khoury]

With a 15 minutes delay, surely the feat of live cheating is a moot point? (Make it 30 of needed)
Anyhow, i believe technically all fide rated games should (or could?) be public domain.

[Roger de Coverly]

With a 15 minutes delay, surely the feat of live cheating is a moot point? (Make it 30 of needed)

It makes casual cheating more difficult. That's where a supporter or spectator is following the game and analysis in real time and communicates deliberately or inadvertently the assessments or suggestions to the player.

[NickFaulks]

With a 15 minutes delay, surely the feat of live cheating is a moot point? Make it 30 of needed)

Just acting as Devil's Advocate, once the DGT board knows what move has been played, who else might also know?

[Roger de Coverly]

Just acting as Devil's Advocate, once the DGT board knows what move has been played, who else might also know?

I would imagine the local server would know. That's the computer that all the wires or wireless connections are joined to. If there are local displays in the venue, they probably know as well. It's the Stockfish at chess.com, chess,24, lichess etc that you want to keep in the dark, so their opinions cannot be used by someone watching who shouldn't be.

[NickFaulks]

It's the Stockfish at chess.com, chess,24, lichess etc that you want to keep in the dark

But can you really be sure of that, just asking? Chess.com in particular seem to have their tentacles everywhere.

[David Sedgwick]

It's the Stockfish at chess.com, chess,24, lichess etc that you want to keep in the dark

But can you really be sure of that, just asking? Chess.com in particular seem to have their tentacles everywhere.

If the event has a contractual arrangement with one (or more) of those whom you mention, it's probably in their interests to abide by the terms of that arrangement.

I won't say any more, partly because I am still learning.

[Geoff Chandler]

Just acting as Devil's Advocate, once the DGT board knows what move has been played, who else might also know?

Hi Nick,

History of a question in a forum.

I recently did a piece for CHESS featuring Dave Clayton, the chap who works the DGT boards in the UK.
(It's a wee bit cheeky, I see him eventually being committed to mad house writing chess moves on a wall in crayon. )
but I sent him a copy before it went to print. Dave OK'd it.

Then all this Carlsen, Niemann stuff happened I did not think for one second Niemann cheated.
And although I joined in with the jokes etc I really was wondering how it could be done.
and with the DGT article still fresh in my mind I was thinking it could come from there.

Then came the claim that Niemann's play improved when playing on DGT boards.
I've no idea if this was proven or not. I'm convinced Hans is not cheating OTB.
However, further fuel for my culprit. The DGT board.

When a move is made on a DGT board a device on the player picks up right away what it was.
After that we get into in the realms of spy technology on how the player picks up what the computer suggests.
You can get a micro device implanted in your ear that would pick what your device is telling you.

So having isolated the DGT I wondered if a player suspecting his board was being mined
could he nobble it by playing say 3.Bb5 in a Lopez but slowly moving the Bishop to e2
pausing there, not letting go. The board would accept Be2 and then drop the Bishop on b5.

I then spent a wee while inventing a game when a computer thinks the Bishop is e2 when in fact it is on b5 and it
suggests a move to player who does not realise it has the wrong position The player plays it and gets mated.

But I have been informed this would not work. (Drat!)
(However when I do my skit based on this theme playing a move like Be2 before Bb5 will work.)

So then I wondered if a player could refuse to play on a live DGT board.
He is not complaining about the board or pieces but does not want the board plugged in.

I felt Jack was fobbing me off with his answers. Most likely just doing his job and did not want
another Carlsen- Niemann cheating thread starting off because it looked like this is where it was going.

I refused to be fobbed off so I invoked 'Ploy No.1'

And here we are. (or were, I'm happy now. Though invoking Ploy No.1 meant I had to pay £'s for a few
phone calls. These controllers...once you get them speaking about what's involved you cannot end the call!)

The side issue about live games and the players being filmed actually creating them is a different matter.
The company streaming it live is using that players image, something we all personally own.
It's between the players, the organisers, the streaming company and (if any) the players agents.

OOPS! I nearly forgot. It's OK Jack I got this.
If you wish to discuss the Carlsen - Niemann affair then not here. Please go to the relevant thread.

Edits; a couple of spelling and missing words corrections. (horses came up, overall I won £8.50)

[NickFaulks]

Then came the claim that Niemann's play improved when playing on DGT boards.

If you are talking about Shirov's mathematical analysis, then it should come as no surprise that it is kindergarten rubbish.

[Geoff Chandler]

I thought it probably was but the name attached, Shirov, added some clout.
We had better stop here Nick, there is another thread dedicated to Carlsengate.
My arbiters question about players requesting not to play on a DGT board has been answered.

No known examples of a player suspecting cheating via the board but now that is has been mentioned....
....players everywhere will refuse to use them, they will be no live games and the only way to see the games
is to buy the tournament book. Book publishers and magazine editors everywhere will nominate me for a knighthood.