If I was on a jury I would remember the case of Sally Clark, who was convicted of murder after the cot death of her two babies. There was no physical evidence, and the prosecution case relied pretty much entirely on the opinion of an expert witness. It took two appeals, and the eventual exposure of his nonsensical statistical justification for his opinion, before her conviction was overturned. She never recovered from the trauma and died of alcoholic poisoning a few years later. There is no way of knowing whether she did, or did not, murder her children.Keith Arkell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:28 amTHis kind of case is obviously unusual from a legal perspective because the kinds of proof neutrals or those siding with Hans are calling for are obviously hard to come by, unless we get lucky, like with Rausis. So therefore the next best thing is to respect what those with the best detective skills in these matters have to say - and that is the likes of Wesley So, Hikaru Nakamura, Ian Nepomniachtchi, Maxime Vachier-Lagrave and Fabiano Caruana.
Carlsen resigns on move 2
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
FIDE do not consider it necessary to prove cheating beyond reasonable doubt.
I think this is common for sports who need to prevent a threat to the sporting integrity.
I think this is common for sports who need to prevent a threat to the sporting integrity.
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
David, this doesn't strike you at all as a possibly inappropriate comparison to a case of alleged cheating at ches?David Williams wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:03 amIf I was on a jury I would remember the case of Sally Clark, who was convicted of murder after the cot death of her two babies. There was no physical evidence, and the prosecution case relied pretty much entirely on the opinion of an expert witness. It took two appeals, and the eventual exposure of his nonsensical statistical justification for his opinion, before her conviction was overturned. She never recovered from the trauma and died of alcoholic poisoning a few years later. There is no way of knowing whether she did, or did not, murder her children.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
There is clearly no good comparison between alleged cheating at chess and alleged wrongdoing in other fields, but miscarriages of justice (or possible miscarriages) in criminal cases, of which horrifyingly many have turned up in recent decades, do in many cases illustrate the point that "expert opinion" can turn out to be absolutely wrong.
Often the expertise called on is only vaguely related to the specific requirements of the case. That, I think, is a huge pitfall when asking top players to judge whether their opponents, or players in other games, have been cheating.
To me it is plausible that top players might be particularly able to sense cheating at their own top levels, but it is far from an obvious tautology.
Often the expertise called on is only vaguely related to the specific requirements of the case. That, I think, is a huge pitfall when asking top players to judge whether their opponents, or players in other games, have been cheating.
To me it is plausible that top players might be particularly able to sense cheating at their own top levels, but it is far from an obvious tautology.
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
Hi Keith,Keith Arkell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:28 am....the next best thing is to respect what those with the best detective skills in these matters have to say - and that is the likes of Wesley So, Hikaru Nakamura, Ian Nepomniachtchi, Maxime Vachier-Lagrave and Fabiano Caruana.
These guys have been playing each other in closed shop tournaments for years. There was no cheating going on due to the strict measures and the video cameras on them all the time so I'm not too sure this lot have any experience facing OTB cheats.
IMO players like yourself and Danny are best placed to spot these OTB cheats as you both face many opponents in different locations where strict security and video cameras are not the norm. I put your opinion that cheating OTB is taking place well above the GM's you named. (basically, how would they know?)
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
I agree it's possibly inappropriate, but I think it's relevant. In some ways it's actually a weaker analogy, in that there was no great problem in seeing how it was possible that the children were murdered, but no-one has produced any convincing explanation as to how Niemann could have cheated against Carlsen. It's not as if he was going to the toilet when it was his move. If he (and other people?) have found a way to cheat successfully at the highest level it's remarkable that all the guilty people know how it's done, but no-one else does. While I don't have the ability to second guess GMs on their ability to spot a cheat, it counts for very little if what they are alleging appears to be impossible.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:34 amDavid, this doesn't strike you at all as a possibly inappropriate comparison to a case of alleged cheating at ches?David Williams wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:03 amIf I was on a jury I would remember the case of Sally Clark, who was convicted of murder after the cot death of her two babies. There was no physical evidence, and the prosecution case relied pretty much entirely on the opinion of an expert witness. It took two appeals, and the eventual exposure of his nonsensical statistical justification for his opinion, before her conviction was overturned. She never recovered from the trauma and died of alcoholic poisoning a few years later. There is no way of knowing whether she did, or did not, murder her children.
If you are cheating by, say, being prompted on binary decisions (should I accept that sacrifice, should I exchange down to an ending) you only need occasional help. But if you are playing moves that a top GM would not consider and you don't really understand yourself, you surely have to be told what to do every single move until the reasoning becomes clear.
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
I appreciate it's a long thread but I have linked to a video explaining how someone would do it without needing an accomplice, so your argument is wrong
I am not clear that Hans has cheated OTB but I do accept that lots of GMs appear to think so
I am not clear that Hans has cheated OTB but I do accept that lots of GMs appear to think so
Any postings on here represent my personal views
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
I don't know if this has been posted already, but a legal person discusses HN's legal action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNgNEiv6w0g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNgNEiv6w0g
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
Maybe, but I am pretty sure that CAS would overturn any penalty based on FIDE's current requirements.Paul Cooksey wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:10 amFIDE do not consider it necessary to prove cheating beyond reasonable doubt.
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
This is not a trivial question, and I would be surprised if his win again Carlsen was one of them.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:16 amDo we even know which games these are?Keith Arkell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:28 amand by now all will have examined Niemann's suspicious games.
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
If I am thinking of the right one, it was by someone called John Fish and he came across as a total idiot.Mick Norris wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:14 pmI have linked to a video explaining how someone would do it without needing an accomplice, so your argument is wrong
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
It's a reasonable opinion that he ouplayed Carlsen in preparation, particularly in spotting the sideways transposition from a Nimzo-Indian to a Catalan and researching accordingly,Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:45 pmThis is not a trivial question, and I would be surprised if his win again Carlsen was one of them.
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
If he could actually do what he suggests, even with rudimentary equipment, I might be convinced. He says that a4 could be communicated by buzzing 1,4. Fair enough. You would have to make it 1,2,1,4 or 4,1,1,4 to know whether it was a pawn or a queen move. h6 would be 8,6, and in the opening you might have 6,8,8,6, 7,8,8,6 or 8,7,8,6 to tell you which piece is moving there. It gets a tad more difficult when you are feeding your opponent's moves in by flexing your calf muscles nearly 30 times with pauses. And one tiny mistake means your engine is giving you moves for the wrong position, which might not be apparent for quite some time.Mick Norris wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:14 pmI appreciate it's a long thread but I have linked to a video explaining how someone would do it without needing an accomplice, so your argument is wrong
But let someone do it, and that at least shows it's possible. It doesn't prove it happened.
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
I was referring to those who haven't spoken publicly at all about this business, eg Ding and Anand. Those who have spoken about it have been clever with their wording to avoid having to deal with the type of exhibitionistic antics Niemann is currently indulging in.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:36 amIf they're not saying anything at all then their opinions can't really be taken into account, and I don't just mean legally.Keith Arkell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:28 amFor legal reasons all are careful with their wording though, or don't say anything at all.
By the way, I think there is zero chance that any of the accused will 'settle', as some have suggested. To even go as far as a court case Niemann has to prove that Carlsen and others accused him of cheating while 'knowing it not to be the case'. That sets a very high bar.
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Re: Carlsen resigns on move 2
Hi Geoff, you're correct in saying that we run into cheating more than the top guys do, but on those rare occasions in which they are exposed they are more skillful at detection than us because the stronger the player the more refined their judgement is.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 1:05 pmHi Keith,Keith Arkell wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:28 am....the next best thing is to respect what those with the best detective skills in these matters have to say - and that is the likes of Wesley So, Hikaru Nakamura, Ian Nepomniachtchi, Maxime Vachier-Lagrave and Fabiano Caruana.
These guys have been playing each other in closed shop tournaments for years. There was no cheating going on due to the strict measures and the video cameras on them all the time so I'm not too sure this lot have any experience facing OTB cheats.
IMO players like yourself and Danny are best placed to spot these OTB cheats as you both face many opponents in different locations where strict security and video cameras are not the norm. I put your opinion that cheating OTB is taking place well above the GM's you named. (basically, how would they know?)