Out of turn draw offer

[David Williams]

Something I feel I ought to know. Rules, not etiquette!

I'm aware that a correctly timed draw offer by player A cannot be withdrawn, and remains valid until it is either rejected or player B makes his next move. But what about an incorrectly timed offer?

Player A offers a draw while it is still his move. Would I be correct in thinking that this also cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until player B makes his next move? Player B is impassive, after a while goes to ask his team captain, disappears to the loo. Player A can (indeed probably must) make a move, and the offer remains on the table.

[IM Jack Rudd]

Barring edge cases (such as A's next move being checkmate), that's correct, yes.

[John Upham]

On the subject of draw offers...

Player A makes a move, offers a draw to Player B and presses the timer.

Player B makes no response and then a flag fall is indicated for B.

Is it correct that B may accept the offered draw?

[IM Jack Rudd]

No. The text of the law in question is as follows (my emphasis):

9.1.2.1    A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the chessboard and before pressing his/her clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid but Article 11.5 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way.

A flag-fall is the game concluding in some other way.

[John Upham]

No. The text of the law in question is as follows (my emphasis):

9.1.2.1    A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the chessboard and before pressing his/her clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid but Article 11.5 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way.

A flag-fall is the game concluding in some other way.

Thanks. I suspect I am thinking of one of those old chess wives tales that never was true in the first place.

Rather like having to move the piece nearest the King if one touched the King and one could not move it legally.

[Michael Farthing]

No. The text of the law in question is as follows (my emphasis):

9.1.2.1    A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the chessboard and before pressing his/her clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid but Article 11.5 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way.

A flag-fall is the game concluding in some other way.

However, a flag fall is an instance of uncertainty theory: the state of the flag is unknown until observed by one of the players or an arbiter. Thus, if the draw was offered with sporting intent (as in this situation it might well have been), both players can simply close their eyes until formal acceptance has been made. (Hoping that any arbiter is similarly broad minded).

[Dragoljub Sudar]

Someone I know says he was recently offered a draw after several minutes of thinking about a move. It distracted him and he had to recalculate which took more time off his clock.

Is he entitled to ask the arbiter to restore the lost time on his clock for the distraction and can the arbiter do so?

[Kevin Thurlow]

"Is he entitled to ask the arbiter to restore the lost time on his clock for the distraction and can the arbiter do so?"

Pause the clock immediately, summon the arbiter, complain, and if the arbiter believes you, you should get extra time and the opponent should get a warning. Or accept the draw offer.

[Nick Ivell]

It is awful etiquette to offer a draw when off the move.

I recall the late George Ellison doing this to me when I was only 12; it did not improve the etiquette that he had a lost ending!

[NickFaulks]

I recall the late George Ellison doing this to me when I was only 12; it did not improve the etiquette that he had a lost ending!

I hope we can assume that you went on to win.

It used to be common for such tactics to be used against young opponents. Nowadays I find it is more common for the juniors themselves to use such methods to upset adult players - I have wondered whether they have been trained to do this.

[Nick Ivell]

I went on to win.

I believe that a draw should be offered from a position of strength, or near-equality; I suppose I was influenced by what Fischer had to say re the ending of his game against Petrosian: 'I offered a draw, not realising it was poor etiquette'.

I do not like the offer of a draw as a weapon of a stronger player: what we might call the reputational offer.

It must have rankled because I am recalling an incident of 50 years ago.

[Kevin Thurlow]

"It must have rankled because I am recalling an incident of 50 years ago."

Don't worry - I think that's entirely normal.

"I believe that a draw should be offered from a position of strength, or near-equality; I suppose I was influenced by what Fischer had to say re the ending of his game against Petrosian: 'I offered a draw, not realising it was poor etiquette'."

One league opponent did apologise to me for offering a draw once, as I gave him a ferocious glare, not realising that he did not know how bad his position was!

[Nick Ivell]

When I tell this story I get a mixed reception. Some people agree with me entirely; others think that a reputational offer is part and parcel of being a stronger player.

I'm with Fischer!

[David Shepherd]

I had this situation in a league match when my opponent offered me a draw at the wrong time, I can't remember what I said - probably something like I'll think about it - he moved and I accepted the draw as I was tired and could see a line where he might be about equal.

He got angry and said that I couldn't accept the draw - I said tough I just have, suggested that he consult his captain and left the board. He then apologised after consulting his captain and I proceeded to show him how bad his situation was - he was then relieved I had accepted the draw.

[Nick Ivell]

Many years ago, around the time of the Ellison incident, I offered a draw in an equal position which was declined. Several moves later, in a much worse position, my opponent stopped the clock saying ok, draw!

I was so shocked I accepted.