Accusation against Alejandro Ramirez

[LawrenceCooper]

and when Sabrina was joint Manager of Women's Chess with Jovanka. I felt that they both had great ideas to organise things for English girls and women but life was made very difficult for them in terms of obstacles being put in their way.

But what were the ideas and what were the obstacles? I believe you, but we need to understand that if we don't want the same thing to happen again.

As a general comment (not specific to Sabrina) I find the comments being made towards women on chess.com, Twitter, Twitch, chess24 and youtube to be thoroughly depressing so it shouldn't be underestimated how difficult it can be being female, (not just in chess I know) but that is where most of my involvement is.

Social media seems to be very much about abuse, with this forum being one of the least offensive ( I have archived some exceptions! ). If you stick your head above the parapet then you're going to get abuse and I have never understood why anyone should give a monkey's left one about that. Credible physical threats are a different matter, but I really don't think that is what we are talking about here.

It was over ten years ago so I don't specifically remember which tournaments etc but in any case I don't think it's board resistance to change that is relevant to the current thread.

Having seen some of the messages it's fair to say that they are unacceptable and wouldn't be directed at anyone who was male.

[Kevin Thurlow]

"Unfortunately, there's also a much larger number who - although they don't fall in either category - choose to turn a blind eye to what they know, or suspect, is going on."

That happens a lot in real life. Someone I hitherto thought was sensible told me he had witnessed a woman being punched and he did nothing as he didn't want to be involved...

Sabrina's problems with coaching may have been that there's money involved and other people want it (that's a usual problem with juniors, and turf wars). Jovanka is good - I would think she would be a great coach.

[Ian Thompson]

A group of female players has recently published a letter. Amongst the signatories are Shoreh Bayat and Jovanka Houska. The authors invite other female players to sign it.

FIDE's response is that affected players should report incidents to the Ethics and Disciplinary Commission. I wonder whether, in most cases, there would be insufficient evidence to do anything as it would be one person's word against another's.

[Roger de Coverly]

FIDE's response is that affected players should report incidents to the Ethics and Disciplinary Commission. I wonder whether, in most cases, there would be insufficient evidence to do anything as it would be one person's word against another's.

The Ethics Commission has a track record of declining jurisdiction. You suspect that if someone wanted to report an incident outside a playing area, they would say "nothing to do with us", particularly if it was a domestic event, even if FIDE rated. That might apply even if inside the playing area.

What would they have made of an incident some years back at the 4NCL between a former women's champion and a moderately well known journalist?

[NickFaulks]

A group of female players has recently published a letter. Amongst the signatories are Shoreh Bayat and Jovanka Houska.

"We, women chess players, coaches, arbiters, and managers, have experienced sexist or sexual violence perpetrated by chess players, coaches, arbiters, or managers.
.......
Today, we are speaking out and encouraging all female players to denounce the violence they have suffered."

What does "denounce" mean, exactly? If it means coming out and naming the guilty parties, as Jen Shahade has recently done, that sounds like an excellent idea. I have to ask why they are not already doing that instead of writing this letter.

[Roger Lancaster]

A group of female players has recently published a letter. Amongst the signatories are Shoreh Bayat and Jovanka Houska.

"We, women chess players, coaches, arbiters, and managers, have experienced sexist or sexual violence perpetrated by chess players, coaches, arbiters, or managers.
.......
Today, we are speaking out and encouraging all female players to denounce the violence they have suffered."

What does "denounce" mean, exactly? If it means coming out and naming the guilty parties, as Jen Shahade has recently done, that sounds like an excellent idea. I have to ask why they are not already doing that instead of writing this letter.

Without knowing, Nick, I'd suspect the reason is the difficulty proving one's case against any named individual - plus the near-certainty of receiving abuse from less-than-sympathetic men.

[NickFaulks]

You suspect that if someone wanted to report an incident outside a playing area, they would say "nothing to do with us", particularly if it was a domestic event, even if FIDE rated.

You may be better informed on the internal workings of FIDE than I am, but I do not suspect anything. I hope this will be tested when one of these many women does actually put together a complaint, but fear this will not happen.

By the way, Jovanka is saying that she has "experienced sexist or sexual violence perpetrated by chess players, coaches, arbiters, or managers". Until she provides a name, every male with whom she has ever had dealings in the chess world is in the frame, which seems unfair.

[NickFaulks]

Without knowing, Nick, I'd suspect the reason is the difficulty proving one's case against any named individual - plus the near-certainty of receiving abuse from less-than-sympathetic men.

You won't find out if you don't try. Recently, the success rate has been 100%.

As to the abuse, if you are bothered by nonsense in the comments sections of obscure chess sites, my advice is not to go out of your way to read them.

[LawrenceCooper]

You suspect that if someone wanted to report an incident outside a playing area, they would say "nothing to do with us", particularly if it was a domestic event, even if FIDE rated.

You may be better informed on the internal workings of FIDE than I am, but I do not suspect anything. I hope this will be tested when one of these many women does actually put together a complaint, but fear this will not happen.

By the way, Jovanka is saying that she has "experienced sexist or sexual violence perpetrated by chess players, coaches, arbiters, or managers". Until she provides a name, every male with whom she has ever had dealings in the chess world is in the frame, which seems unfair.

But not nearly as unfair as her and others having to deal with it in the first place.

[Angus French]

Surely the first thing to do is to make a formal complaint to the appropriate authority/ies, backed up with all available evidence. If others can corroborate your complaint that should help a great deal. Authorities need to be receptive to complaints, have appropriate procedures in place, act fairly to all parties and with timeliness and discretion.

[Kevin Thurlow]

"But not nearly as unfair as her and others having to deal with it in the first place."

Neither is fair - think of the poor chap who has just spent 17 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, and some people will still think he "got off" on a technicality.

The difficulty with the complaints we are hearing is that there tend not to be witnesses, so inevitably it's one person's word against another's. Obviously victims of any sort of abuse deserve sympathy and appropriate action taken, but you cannot randomly find innocent people guilty.

[Mick Norris]

I think we are a bit off topic talking about Sabrina's unsuccessful foray into coaching and ECF politics. She was talking about sexism and the hostile atmosphere she experienced as a chess player. Her short cross video

The USCF does seemed to have prioritised minimizing the risk of litigation.

Thanks Paul, that's a really tough watch/listen

I don't think everyone on the Forum really gets this, there's a problem here; if as Paul says, that's the attitude of the USCF, we need to make sure the ECF don't have the same priorities

[LawrenceCooper]

"But not nearly as unfair as her and others having to deal with it in the first place."

Neither is fair - think of the poor chap who has just spent 17 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, and some people will still think he "got off" on a technicality.

The difficulty with the complaints we are hearing is that there tend not to be witnesses, so inevitably it's one person's word against another's. Obviously victims of any sort of abuse deserve sympathy and appropriate action taken, but you cannot randomly find innocent people guilty.

Yes, I understand that point. My response is partly born out of annoyance, not so much at this forum, but at the constant comments telling victims of sexual harassment and abuse what they should do and making it sound like it's a trivial thing. If they are unable or unwilling to re-live everything that has happened they shouldn't be judged negatively. If they do find the courage to speak up a more sympathetic response than "prove it" or "where is your evidence" or "you probably deserved it" which seems to be the norm on social media.

[Mick Norris]

Surely the first thing to do is to make a formal complaint to the appropriate authority/ies, backed up with all available evidence. If others can corroborate your complaint that should help a great deal. Authorities need to be receptive to complaints, have appropriate procedures in place, act fairly to all parties and with timeliness and discretion.

Does that sound like the ECF?

[NickFaulks]

Does that sound like the ECF?

Yes it does, although it would be helpful if someone were to test those procedures by actually making a complaint.

Let's not forget that one of the signatories of the letter is on the ECF Board, which fact alone should satisfy anyone that such a complaint could not be ignored.