County divisions

[MJMcCready]

Which counties cut into more than one section, like north or south. It carried on like that for decades in my county and I do not understand why. Would it have been rival clubs shaped leagues operating in to smaller areas or geograhically distinct sections of a county were created...for better or for worse. But many counties in England and are relatively small: like the one known in my own county; namely, sunny Bedfordshre. How nationside was it, and was it the norm for counties to be divided up like that

Did the S.C.C.U ever have any directives over it. In my county Bedford wanted to join our southern league, mostly in honour of the long sttanding rivalry between the two places being connected by train for the first time.

I'm assuminng rivalry took precedence over modern forms of transportant the time. Any thoughts? Anything I am missing?

If justification for such north/south divide countywide has reportage of justifications or dare I say arguments in favour of it Yes I confess I didn't know the costs of running a vehicle but it must have little. Quite likely such north/south teammates were easier to shanghai than for the senior county team, most likely languishing in the S.C.C.U (as it so often did).

I am curious to know why such a divide emerged, why it carried on for decades? How is a divisional league structure able to augment unity and togetherness, proud of who we play for or is my question relexive of how impoverished my understanding in the functionality if the countytema and its prestige, or significance if you like?

Unlike a very great many and some prominent historians I have a broader understanding of what history is and have learnt that in non-academic history, or uncritical history as many say, I am aware that the the oral tradition of history has always been and will always be the dominant form. I'm not expecting all details and it may well be the case that the partition of our county was never documented, it just sort of went that way by itself...I have work ahead.

[Roger de Coverly]

Did the S.C.C.U ever have any directives over it. In my county Bedford wanted to join our southern league, mostly in honour of the long sttanding rivalry between the two places being connected by train for the first time.

The SCCU was an association of counties. In some areas counties ran the local league or leagues and in other areas they didn't. Somtimes the historic development was that a couple of clubs were formed, they created a league and a county was an extension of the league or possibly leagues. Counties were often constrained by traditional historic boundaries which leagues weren't.

[Joey Stewart]

Gloucestershire has a ridiculous archaic divide where the "south" of the country comprises a lot of Bristol, most of the players from that region refuse to recognise the border and consequently neither Gloucestershire or ""Avon"" now have any presence in the county scene - the few Bristol players that do consider themselves attached to a county seem to only be from the Somerset side.

[MJMcCready]

Did the S.C.C.U ever have any directives over it. In my county Bedford wanted to join our southern league, mostly in honour of the long sttanding rivalry between the two places being connected by train for the first time.

The SCCU was an association of counties. In some areas counties ran the local league or leagues and in other areas they didn't. Somtimes the historic development was that a couple of clubs were formed, they created a league and a county was an extension of the league or possibly leagues. Counties were often constrained by traditional historic boundaries which leagues weren't.

That sounds about right.

[MJMcCready]

How many counties still have a north/south or east/west divide?

[Kevin Thurlow]

Somerset has an "East" and "West" division to some extent.

[MJMcCready]

Somerset has an "East" and "West" division to some extent.

Has it always been like that?

[IM Jack Rudd]

It was certainly like that in the 1980s when I started playing Somerset League chess. Mostly a consequence of the sheer size of Somerset rather than anything else. Devon, likewise, has a history of regional leagues, although I'm not sure how many of them are still active.

[MJMcCready]

So it's safe to say that cutting down journey times is the principal reason. And this tends to remain unchallenged as a matter of convenience even though transportation has improved no end in the decades such divisions have remained in play.

[Matt Mackenzie]

Has it really "improved no end" in large swathes of the country though?

[MJMcCready]

Hmmm, not sure but cars are faster and there are more roads but yes there probably are nationwide unwritten rules over how long journeys should take or not exceed rather. In my own county, which is very small, it is quite hard to understand why a north/south divide stood until the late 1950s. There was some evidence in the 1890s, that I understand but why it stood that way for so long is tough to get to the bottom of.

[IM Jack Rudd]

My guess would be that once a league structure is in place, it tends to survive unless the size of the league goes below some critical threshold. It's a self-reinforcing mechanism to some extent: anyone who joins the league is OK enough with it to carry on with the existing arrangements, so the argument for change is hard to build up.

[Kevin Thurlow]

https://lms.englishchess.org.uk/lms/event/6241/fixtures shows Somerset fixtures. Division 1 has grown to four clubs this year, Sedgemoor (in Bridgwater), Trowbridge (in Wiltshire), Wells and Yeovil. I live about 15 miles from Bridgwater, 34 miles from Trowbridge, 11 miles from Wells, and 27 miles from Yeovil. I think there was talk of Trowbridge matches being played at a neutral venue. They are very welcome to join - last year the three teams had to play each other four times! Luckily we all tend to get on, so although there's an element of "Not you again" when you play the same opponent for the 4th time, it's with a smile. From my point of view, there is no public transport (maybe one bus a day), so bad weather on a match day is unwelcome.

Division 2 and 3 are split into East and West.

Completely irrelevant but the Wells venue is a pub selling real ale, including "Serpent of the Axe", which is an awesome name...

[MJMcCready]

My guess would be that once a league structure is in place, it tends to survive unless the size of the league goes below some critical threshold. It's a self-reinforcing mechanism to some extent: anyone who joins the league is OK enough with it to carry on with the existing arrangements, so the argument for change is hard to build up.

Yes, sounds about right but we also had yearly north V south matches too as if to compound things further. Perhaps you are right, they were just happy with their lot and if its not broken, don't fix it. It was only Bedford that pushed the agenda in our league even though after WW2 they actually had 6 clubs of their own!

[Paul Cooksey]

I agree with Jack that once leagues are established they endure, it is easier to add and remove divisions than form a new organisation.

But with apologies to the West Country, and I assume East Anglia and the North, for whom this would be a luxury problem, you do see some fluidity between leagues in more populated areas. It bothers me that Berkshire currently has no teams from West Berkshire. That isn't quite as bad as it sounds since 80% of the counties population is in East Berkshire. But we used to have two, Basingstoke and Newbury, which I guess are interesting cases.

Basingstoke did not like being a yo-yo team between our first and second divisions over many years and prefer the venues in the Southampton League (which covers most of Hampshire). It makes sense that when a club is on a border it might switch, or participate in both.

Newbury is somewhat similar. It has not joined another league directly, but it has a twin club in the Oxford league which the are prioritising. I hope that is only temporary.

I suppose in both cases being on the edge of the league is an issue. The distances between East and West Berkshire are not huge. But a bad commute on the M3 or M4 can feel like a lifetime. I suppose I cannot complain too much since the same factors mean Camberley is in the Berkshire and not the Surrey League.