Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:51 am

Because it will help the discussion at the captains' meeting if there are some firm proposals to discuss. So, to kick off with...

Mostly reverting to the old system...

Division 1 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now.
Division 2 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now, with possible alteration as per Mike Yeo's proposal.
Division 3 - 12 team APA. 6 player teams, eligibility rules as per current division 3.
Division 4 South / North - as current division 3.

Players in Division 1 venue: 264 (as opposed to current 256).

Sean Hewitt

Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:25 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:Division 2 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now, with possible alteration as per Mike Yeo's proposal.
Michael's proposal is
Micahel Yeo wrote:Rule 7.2 states:
In Division 2 each match shall be played over eight boards and each team must include at least one
representative from two of the following three groups: (a) male players (b) female players (c) junior
players who are under sixteen years on 1 January 201x.
The proposal is to amend this to:
In Division 2 each match shall be played over eight boards and each team must include at least one
representative from two of the following four groups: (a) male players (b) female players (c) junior
players who are under sixteen years on 1 January 201x (d)senior players who are over sixty years on
1 January 201x.
(x was 1 for this season and will be 2 for next season.)
Concern has been raised at the possibility of a number of teams declining promotion from Division 3
to Division 2.  Rather than dilute the strength of Division 2 by promoting weaker teams, this proposal
attempts to remove one of the deterrents to opting for promotion.
Separately, I have had a suggestion that in the definition of a junior, sixteen might be changed to
eighteen.

Alan Walton
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Alan Walton » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:48 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:Because it will help the discussion at the captains' meeting if there are some firm proposals to discuss. So, to kick off with...

Mostly reverting to the old system...

Division 1 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now.
Division 2 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now, with possible alteration as per Mike Yeo's proposal.
Division 3 - 12 team APA. 6 player teams, eligibility rules as per current division 3.
Division 4 South / North - as current division 3.

Players in Division 1 venue: 264 (as opposed to current 256).
I would have to agree with Jack, but with the slight edit

Division 3 - 12 team APA. 7 player teams, eligibility rules as per current division 3.
Division 4 South / North - as current division 3.

Also split weekends I think are required, there have been too many problems with hotels this season, and this needs to be rectified as well

This would give a gradual step up to the 8 board format for teams coming up from the 6 board format, and thus only having to find one extra player each season rather than suddenly having to find two

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:53 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:Because it will help the discussion at the captains' meeting if there are some firm proposals to discuss. So, to kick off with...

Mostly reverting to the old system...

Division 1 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now.
Division 2 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now, with possible alteration as per Mike Yeo's proposal.
Division 3 - 12 team APA. 6 player teams, eligibility rules as per current division 3.
Division 4 South / North - as current division 3.

Players in Division 1 venue: 264 (as opposed to current 256).
If we reverted to this, would it be from 2011/12 or 2012/13? The implication being that teams would be getting relegated who hitherto thought they were safe.

I assume the promotion/relegation would be 3-up, 3-down thereafter?

I guess you could have in 2011/12:
Division 1 - 1st - 12th in current D1
Division 2 - 13th - 16th in current D1, 1st - 8th in current D2
Division 3 - 9th - 16th in current D2, 1st - 4th in current D3

So you still only have 4 promoted from venue 2 to venue 1, so I think that's reasonable. It also helps reduce the requirement for females/juniors from 32 teams to 24, which would surely be useful.

In summary: I like this proposal.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:56 am

Alan Walton wrote:Division 3 - 12 team APA. 7 player teams, eligibility rules as per current division 3.
I don't like 7 board teams on account of having more blacks than whites in a game. I wouldn't much mind whether it's teams of 6 or teams of 8 in the new proposed Division 3, but I don't like the idea of teams of 7.

Alan Walton
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Alan Walton » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:16 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:Division 3 - 12 team APA. 7 player teams, eligibility rules as per current division 3.
I don't like 7 board teams on account of having more blacks than whites in a game. I wouldn't much mind whether it's teams of 6 or teams of 8 in the new proposed Division 3, but I don't like the idea of teams of 7.
Valid point

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:23 am

Alan Walton wrote: This would give a gradual step up to the 8 board format for teams coming up from the 6 board format, and thus only having to find one extra player each season rather than suddenly having to find two
I doubt if there would be much difficulty in running eight board teams, provided there were no special conditions attaching to any of the boards.

Alan Walton
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Alan Walton » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:04 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alan Walton wrote: This would give a gradual step up to the 8 board format for teams coming up from the 6 board format, and thus only having to find one extra player each season rather than suddenly having to find two
I doubt if there would be much difficulty in running eight board teams, provided there were no special conditions attaching to any of the boards.
Maybe not but why not have a system which makes it a little more gradual, it just gives teams a little more focus on recruiting the extra players required when moving up divisions, rather just waiting to move straight from 6 to 8, as you have said it isn't much of a problem, they main worry as Alex pointed out with 7 board teams if the inequality of black & whites (which I didn't think of originally)

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Gareth Harley-Yeo
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Gareth Harley-Yeo » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:39 pm

I really like the idea of a new division 3 without the constraints of a forced female/junior. If conditions put in then I'd welcome the addition of 'seniors'.

For me 8 boards would be the way forward. The fact that it's 2 boards up from div 4 will be the noticeable step up, whilst not needing a female/junior/senior will be the step down from div 2.

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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:45 pm

Would an 8-board division 3 (new) be preferable to a 6-board division 3, assuming no constraints? I don't know the implications in terms of hotel space, but I'm wondering whether people would prefer this from a sporting perspective. It makes sense to me, as it would be a way of stepping up out of the 6-board teams at the same time you leave the Swiss.

Alan Walton
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Alan Walton » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:48 pm

Would a problem be and 8 board Div 3 without constraints, if a team was promoted a settled team would then have to drop a player for the junior/female, unless they already had one within their team, that is why I suggested the 7 board format, so the only extra player you would have to find if promoted into Div 2 would be the junior/female, as you already have played a season with 7 players

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Gareth Harley-Yeo
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Gareth Harley-Yeo » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:52 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Would a problem be and 8 board Div 3 without constraints, if a team was promoted a settled team would then have to drop a player for the junior/female, unless they already had one within their team, that is why I suggested the 7 board format, so the only extra player you would have to find if promoted into Div 2 would be the junior/female, as you already have played a season with 7 players
I just considered the same. 7 boards do therefore seem preferable. As for the colour imbalance I don't think that's of any real concern as they will even out over the course of the weekend. Maybe toss for colours for the final round?

Ian Thompson
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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:07 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Would a problem be and 8 board Div 3 without constraints, if a team was promoted a settled team would then have to drop a player for the junior/female, unless they already had one within their team, that is why I suggested the 7 board format, so the only extra player you would have to find if promoted into Div 2 would be the junior/female, as you already have played a season with 7 players
I think the best solution is to drop the requirement for juniors and females completely. It might have had some merit years ago when there were far fewer teams in the 4NCL. Now there are numerous teams of all standards, so a junior or female should be able to play for a team in a division appropriate to their standard of play without needing preferential treatment.

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Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:07 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Would a problem be and 8 board Div 3 without constraints, if a team was promoted a settled team would then have to drop a player for the junior/female, unless they already had one within their team, that is why I suggested the 7 board format, so the only extra player you would have to find if promoted into Div 2 would be the junior/female, as you already have played a season with 7 players
I'm not sure that would necessarily be a problem. I find it hard to believe that a settled team would have 8 players only in it for an 8-board division. It's more likely that you have, say, 12-16. Since you'd have a rotation policy of sorts anyway to account for unavailability, I don't see how the junior/female/senior requirement would be a problem.
Ian Thompson wrote:I think the best solution is to drop the requirement for juniors and females completely. It might have had some merit years ago when there were far fewer teams in the 4NCL. Now there are numerous teams of all standards, so a junior or female should be able to play for a team in a division appropriate to their standard of play without needing preferential treatment.
This too would be my preference. I've spoken to some others who thought the same, but they all seemed very scared of proposing it... They did a poll two years ago, I gather, and it resulted in them showing a preference for the junior/female rules. I wonder whether these results would be the same today.

LozCooper

Re: Proposals for future D1/2 formats

Post by LozCooper » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:25 pm

Bob Clark wrote:Is there a need for a division 3 and then a division 4 North/South
So
Division 1 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now.
Division 2 - 12 team APA. 8 player teams, eligibility rules as now, with possible alteration as per Mike Yeo's proposal.
Division 3 - South / North - as current division 3.

This would probably improve the viability of the Northern league
This would also continue to allow new teams to get to Division 1 in two years as opposed to three which I understand was one of the reasons for changing the four division structure.

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