Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
Alex Holowczak
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Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:43 pm

Do you lose sleep at night because you don't know who won the Counties 3rd team Championship in 1988?

I didn't think you did!

However, if you're interested in knowing the answer to that question, and indeed want to look at all the historical winners of all sections of the Counties Championship, then they can now be found on the ECF website here.

I found the Lancashire/Middlesex dominance in the Open from 1922-1950 interesting. Lancashire had a barren spell after 1978, for reasons I can guess but don't need to be brought up here. If I've counted correctly, Middlesex won their 28th title in 1989, but haven't won it in 23 years since. They're still 8 clear of Lancashire for most wins all-time in the Open, despite going 30 years without a win themselves.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:12 pm

Thanks for that. It's interesting.

92 County Open Championship winners.

Middlesex 28 times, Lancashire 20 times, Kent 13 times, Surrey 6 times, Cambridgeshire 6 times, Yorkshire 5 times, Essex 4 times, Warwickshire 3 times, Greater Manchester 3 times, Oxfordshire 2 times, Staffordshire once, Leicestershire once.

Wonder who the losing finallists were each time, and who has appeared in the final most often?

Has any county failed to win even one of the minor titles?

In the days of the BCF, were there no Scottish or Welsh entries?

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:17 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Wonder who the losing finallists were each time, and who has appeared in the final most often?
I'm afraid my source doesn't contain that information. If anyone has a stockpile of BCF/ECF Yearbooks somewhere...
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Has any county failed to win even one of the minor titles?
Worcestershire is yet to win any titles at all, but we're making good progress in the MCCU stages this year in an attempt to write that wrong. The Under 140 team reached the Semi Finals last year, narrowly losing to Hampshire, which was made even more brilliant an achievement given they were saddled with the burden of having me on board 1/2. :oops:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:In the days of the BCF, were there no Scottish or Welsh entries?
There were Scottish entries for the National Club, I'm told. It wouldn't have surprised me if the same were true in the Counties.

There's also the pedantic constitutional point; Cheshire & North Wales field a team in the NCCU stages - or at least, did - so there has been a Welsh presence even after the cessation, and continues to be one to this day.

Mick Norris
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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:38 am

http://www.nccu.org.uk/nccu-county-chess-2011-2012/

They don't appear to have many counties left playing
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:00 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: However, if you're interested in knowing the answer to that question, and indeed want to look at all the historical winners of all sections of the Counties Championship, then they can now be found on the ECF website here.
It's incomplete. There was a Minor Counties competition in 1980/81, the results of which are on page 55 of the 1981-82 BCF YearBook. Bucks beat Devon II by 12-4 at Bristol. The rules in those days were that eligible teams were second teams and "minor" counties. There were only four entrants, in the semis Bucks had beaten Notts II by 12.5 to 7.5 and Devon had beaten Lancs II by 9.5-6.5

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:14 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: In the days of the BCF, were there no Scottish or Welsh entries?
I don't know about entries from Scotland, but Wales used to have Union status in the BCF alongside the SCCU, MCCU etc,. Just before the Welsh became a national federation, I recall travelling from Cambridge to the other side of Oxford for a counties qf against a Welsh team. I don't recall their exact name, it might have been something like "Glamorgan and mid Wales".

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Neil Graham » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:29 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Do you lose sleep at night because you don't know who won the Counties 3rd team Championship in 1988?

I didn't think you did!

However, if you're interested in knowing the answer to that question, and indeed want to look at all the historical winners of all sections of the Counties Championship, then they can now be found on the ECF website here.

I found the Lancashire/Middlesex dominance in the Open from 1922-1950 interesting. Lancashire had a barren spell after 1978, for reasons I can guess but don't need to be brought up here. If I've counted correctly, Middlesex won their 28th title in 1989, but haven't won it in 23 years since. They're still 8 clear of Lancashire for most wins all-time in the Open, despite going 30 years without a win themselves.
I've lost sleep wondering how Nottinghamshire managed to win the Under 100 final in 2011 when they were knocked out in the quarter-finals. :?

Possibly it's because the Under 180, which Notts won, has inadvertently been switched with the Under 100 results. Essex, shown as winners of the U-180, were the winners of the Under 100. Perhaps a correction is in order?? :)

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:37 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Wonder who the losing finallists were each time, and who has appeared in the final most often?
I'm afraid my source doesn't contain that information. If anyone has a stockpile of BCF/ECF Yearbooks somewhere...
You would hope the BCF/ECF would maintain its own archives (even if it is only copies of the yearbooks kept somewhere - the library centre in Hastings?), though I suppose the fact that you are doing this means that those archives never existed or have been lost. Given the correction provided above, it might be an idea to: (a) give details of your source so people can judge its reliability; and (b) add details of corroborating sources as they are used. Also, best to give a date for when that table was first published and when it was last updated, and an author, and who to contact with corrections/updates.

Oh, and if the document gets to a stage where it looks good, publish/archive it somewhere relatively permanent (e.g. in the Yearbook?) so it isn't lost the next time there is a change in the website architecture/construction.

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:50 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:It's incomplete. There was a Minor Counties competition in 1980/81, the results of which are on page 55 of the 1981-82 BCF YearBook. Bucks beat Devon II by 12-4 at Bristol. The rules in those days were that eligible teams were second teams and "minor" counties. There were only four entrants, in the semis Bucks had beaten Notts II by 12.5 to 7.5 and Devon had beaten Lancs II by 9.5-6.5
Thank you for this; it wasn't in the source that I had. Did the Minor exist before 1982, which is when my records went back to? (I mean it clearly existed in 1981, but it may have gone back further.)
Neil Graham wrote:I've lost sleep wondering how Nottinghamshire managed to win the Under 100 final in 2011 when they were knocked out in the quarter-finals. :?

Possibly it's because the Under 180, which Notts won, has inadvertently been switched with the Under 100 results. Essex, shown as winners of the U-180, were the winners of the Under 100. Perhaps a correction is in order?? :)
I put them all in a spreadsheet, and I originally had them listed as U100 through to U180, then moved them to show U180 to U100. So I think that's where the error has come from. Will review it...

Edit: The whole row is back-to-front in the graded sections! :oops:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:You would hope the BCF/ECF would maintain its own archives (even if it is only copies of the yearbooks kept somewhere - the library centre in Hastings?), though I suppose the fact that you are doing this means that those archives never existed or have been lost. Given the correction provided above, it might be an idea to: (a) give details of your source so people can judge its reliability; and (b) add details of corroborating sources as they are used. Also, best to give a date for when that table was first published and when it was last updated, and an author, and who to contact with corrections/updates.

Oh, and if the document gets to a stage where it looks good, publish/archive it somewhere relatively permanent (e.g. in the Yearbook?) so it isn't lost the next time there is a change in the website architecture/construction.
The material is already printed in the Yearbook. I got all this from the 2010 Yearbook, and cobbled the more recent winners together from the records on the website. I just thought it deserved a place on the website...

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:13 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:You would hope the BCF/ECF would maintain its own archives (even if it is only copies of the yearbooks kept somewhere - the library centre in Hastings?), though I suppose the fact that you are doing this means that those archives never existed or have been lost. Given the correction provided above, it might be an idea to: (a) give details of your source so people can judge its reliability; and (b) add details of corroborating sources as they are used. Also, best to give a date for when that table was first published and when it was last updated, and an author, and who to contact with corrections/updates.

Oh, and if the document gets to a stage where it looks good, publish/archive it somewhere relatively permanent (e.g. in the Yearbook?) so it isn't lost the next time there is a change in the website architecture/construction.
The material is already printed in the Yearbook. I got all this from the 2010 Yearbook, and cobbled the more recent winners together from the records on the website. I just thought it deserved a place on the website...
Fair enough. Some people reading that webpage would probably appreciate knowing that, though, especially knowing which bits were from the 2010 Yearbook (useful to know and reliable) and which bits were 'cobbled' together from other pages on the website (these results will appear in future Yearbooks). :D The stuff about date of publication and last update date still applies. It's a personal annoyance of mine when websites publish without a date of first publication, or only an update date and no initial date, and when they don't provide a convenience link for updates/corrections.

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:16 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The stuff about date of publication and last update date still applies. It's a personal annoyance of mine when websites publish without a date of first publication, or only an update date and no initial date, and when they don't provide a convenience link for updates/corrections.
In which case, I'm going to annoy you, because I can reveal that the amendments pointed out in this thread have now been amended. :(

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:16 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: Thank you for this; it wasn't in the source that I had. Did the Minor exist before 1982, which is when my records went back to? (I mean it clearly existed in 1981, but it may have gone back further.)
From memory the Minor Counties was a new event in the late seventies, which initially didn't attract much interest. In the season in question, it was only Middlesex II and Bucks from the SCCU, so we qualified when we beat them earlier in the season.

As to when it started, the yearbooks are probably the best guide. Failing that the SCCU bulletin or the BCF's Newsflash.

The list of winners comes from the BCF/ECF yearbook and the winners of the Counties Championship proper have been published there possibly for as long as there's been a yearbook. The early year or two of the Minor Counties has been missing for some time. I can recall the ex-editor of the BCM, now editor of Chess, maintaining and researching the list of British Champions including the many junior ones. I doubt he did the same for the team events as he might have spotted that a match he played it was missing.

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:58 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The stuff about date of publication and last update date still applies. It's a personal annoyance of mine when websites publish without a date of first publication, or only an update date and no initial date, and when they don't provide a convenience link for updates/corrections.
In which case, I'm going to annoy you, because I can reveal that the amendments pointed out in this thread have now been amended. :(
Not really annoyed, just a bit resigned to the quality of website editing (even the BBC do this, only saying when their news articles were last updated, and failing to say when they were first published - or to be more precise, they give the time of last update, but not the time of initial publication, e.g. for the Cameron story up there at the moment, "26 January 2012 Last updated at 12:12 " - maybe there is a reason for this, though).

It's very simple to do. You add a line at the bottom of the webpage saying the following:

"Added by Alex Holowczak on 25 January 2012. Last updated 26 January 2012. Source: 2010 ECF Yearbook for entries up to and including 2010. More recent entries as published on the ECF website. Corrections and additions welcomed."

Or you put stuff like that on a wiki and let other people annoy you by making the corrections for you... :D

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Kevin Williamson » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: Thank you for this; it wasn't in the source that I had. Did the Minor exist before 1982, which is when my records went back to? (I mean it clearly existed in 1981, but it may have gone back further.)
From memory the Minor Counties was a new event in the late seventies, which initially didn't attract much interest. In the season in question, it was only Middlesex II and Bucks from the SCCU, so we qualified when we beat them earlier in the season.

As to when it started, the yearbooks are probably the best guide. Failing that the SCCU bulletin or the BCF's Newsflash.

The list of winners comes from the BCF/ECF yearbook and the winners of the Counties Championship proper have been published there possibly for as long as there's been a yearbook. The early year or two of the Minor Counties has been missing for some time. I can recall the ex-editor of the BCM, now editor of Chess, maintaining and researching the list of British Champions including the many junior ones. I doubt he did the same for the team events as he might have spotted that a match he played it was missing.

I have just removed the Minor Counties trophy from my trophy cabinet (otherwise known as a wardrobe) and earlier winners are listed as:

1973 Lancashire II
1974 Lancashire II
1975 Lancashire II
1976 Yorkshire II
1977 Yorkshire II
1978 Middlesex II
1979 Essex II
1980 Yorkshire II

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Re: Historical winners of the Counties Championship

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:49 pm

Kevin Williamson wrote: I have just removed the Minor Counties trophy from my trophy cabinet (otherwise known as a wardrobe) and earlier winners are listed as:

1973 Lancashire II
1974 Lancashire II
1975 Lancashire II
1976 Yorkshire II
1977 Yorkshire II
1978 Middlesex II
1979 Essex II
1980 Yorkshire II
I think that probably explains things.

The competition was originally established for second teams. It was then extended so that second division first teams like Bucks (and Beds) could enter. From the 1981-82 season, it was subdivided into Minor Counties and Second teams. Bucks reached the final again in 1982-83, that time losing to Sussex first team in the final.

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