Telegraph report about Austria

[Neil Graham]

There's something a bit asymmetric about the discussion so far, which seems a bit odd.

The allegations might be true, or they might be false. (I have no extra information on which.)

If they're true, then it's a serious issue. The original ECF statement said so, and Peter continues to stress the possible consequences.

If they're false, ... what then? Is that a serious issue? The original ECF statement said nothing about that, and even the more recent statement is silent on it. I can't recall seeing anything Peter has written that has entertained the possibility or seriously explored the consequences. If I were one of the coaches, or one of the accused parents [and if I knew I was innocent], I'd be quite aggrieved at the tone of some of the comments here.

Well of course if the allegations are false (and I sincerely hope that they are, knowing one of the coaches) then it is a serious issue as long term it could affect his career – to be honest I would have thought that goes without saying.

The points I have tried to make and have obviously failed to do so because people don’t seem/or want to understand is very simple:-

• Once allegations of this kind are made and a complaint is made to the police they are duty bound to investigate as in the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand case (an off duty police officer made the complaint)

• The ECF have jumped the gun – the question is why? I would have been more reticent and waited for the outcome of the police investigation if there is to be one – if there isn’t then obviously they would have had to make a considered response

• I do not know who is right or wrong in this case, I am only commenting on what I have read and my personal opinion

Firstly the question of prosecution in any case is the remit of the Crown Prosecution Service not the police as suggested in several posts.

In general Peter is correct, once a referral was made to the police as clearly has happened in this case the matter was taken out of the ECF's hands. The police will no doubt if they believe an investigation appropriate be asking the ECF to provide all the paperwork they have obtained as evidence. I can well understand that the Federation felt it necessary to make enquiries and issue a statement but sometimes this can be counter-productive. I'm not suggesting anything amiss at all but I remember a certain newspaper conducting an internal enquiry and assuring everyone that one rogue reporter was involved - witness the court hearings today when several ex-employees have been sent to Crown Court for trial. One hopes that the ECF's position will stand up to scrutiny if a full investigation is conducted.

Finally one assumes that all the events referred to happened in Austria - so do the Austrian authorities have jurisdiction over any offence? I seem to have read that they consider the matter closed.

[Sean Coffey]

If the allegations are false, then they shouldn't have any long-term effect on the ECF's treatment of a coach.

I'm surprised that Peter thinks that the ECF should postpone action. Why? If a parent complains to the ECF, the ECF should address the matter, promptly and thoroughly.

[Roger de Coverly]

I'm surprised that Peter thinks that the ECF should postpone action

This is peak time for international junior teams. There's the group just back from the Athens under 20 and the group just heading out to Prague. If there are "lessons are to be learned", they would apply to the Athens and Prague groups as well.

Here's the wrap up from Athens by, I assume, one of the parents

http://englishchess.org.uk/Juniors/worl ... ship-2012/

[Andrew Zigmond]

• The ECF have jumped the gun – the question is why? I would have been more reticent and waited for the outcome of the police investigation if there is to be one – if there isn’t then obviously they would have had to make a considered response

The only answer I can think of to that is that the ECF have both sides of the story (which we don't) and feel confident they can make such a statement.

Firstly the question of prosecution in any case is the remit of the Crown Prosecution Service not the police as suggested in several posts.

I believe the police prepare a file which is sent to the Crown Prosecution Service. I was aware of that but my posts are pedantic enough already!

[Richard Bates]

I'm surprised that Peter thinks that the ECF should postpone action

This is peak time for international junior teams. There's the group just back from the Athens under 20 and the group just heading out to Prague. If there are "lessons are to be learned", they would apply to the Athens and Prague groups as well.

Here's the wrap up from Athens by, I assume, one of the parents

http://englishchess.org.uk/Juniors/worl ... ship-2012/

An earlier report from another tournament is, er, cryptic. Wonder who wrote it.

[Alan Burke]

What I always find wrong in situations such as these is that instead of just reporting any alleged offence to the police and allowing them to carry out a fair investigation, those who feel they have been wronged also go to the press in order for their side of the story to be published before any such allegations have either been proven or dismissed as false - and can then just walk away with their character unblemished if their accusations are judged to be unfounded, whereas those who are subsequently found to be not guilty of any offence have already had their name put into the public domain and might have to put up with all the subsequent baggage that accompanies such publication.

As instances of this; people still make comments (even if just joking) with regard to the court cases regarding Ken Dodd; Matthew Kelly; John Terry, etc, etc - all were not proven yet mud sticks.

I also feel that in this day and age many people are quick to jump on the 'racism-sexism-homophobic' bandwagon and accuse anyone who dare disagree with their point of view on any one of a variety of issues to be guilty of such an offence even if the disagreement had nothing to do with those matters.

[Andrew Zigmond]

What I always find wrong in situations such as these is that instead of just reporting any alleged offence to the police and allowing them to carry out a fair investigation, those who feel they have been wronged also go to the press in order for their side of the story to be published before any such allegations have either been proven or dismissed as false - and can then just walk away with their character unblemished if their accusations are judged to be unfounded, whereas those who are subsequently found to be not guilty of any offence have already had their name put into the public domain and might have to put up with all the subsequent baggage that accompanies such publication.

As instances of this; people still make comments (even if just joking) with regard to the court cases regarding Ken Dodd; Matthew Kelly; John Terry, etc, etc - all were not proven yet mud sticks.

I also feel that in this day and age many people are quick to jump on the 'racism-sexism-homophobic' bandwagon and accuse anyone who dare disagree with their point of view on any one of a variety of issues to be guilty of such an offence even if the disagreement had nothing to do with those matters.

That's exactly the issue here; although I would qualify that by saying that there are laws regulating the press (who are ultimately responsible for anything they publish), there are libel and slander laws and the police will take a dim view of complaints that are made in bad faith. However on the opposing side of that the burden of proof (rightly) is on the complainant - guilt must be proven beyond all reasonable doubt - and people have been tarred with the brush of lying when there was simply insufficient evidence to progress a genuine complaint further. It's a difficult one - and one of interest to me outside of chess.

Unfortunately it's a symptom of todays society - we start organising the lynch mob when a person is charged (or even when they're arrested) instead of waiting for a conviction - and certain sections of the press are happy to encourage this. This is why I've been arguing for discussion to be downplayed on this one as an ill chosen comment could easily be quoted out of context and inflame the situation.

[Alan Burke]

I agree with you Andrew and, as we all know, press reports of such situations usually include the word "alleged" in order that they are not directly accusing anyone of the offence; yet the names of those involved are still published.

The headline in the Independent was "Muslim brothers 'abused' by rivals' parents on chess trip."

The newspaper has been clever in putting the word "abused" in quotation marks, but how many people reading the paper will just see the headline and assume the brothers were somehow already proven victims of a racial attack ?

[LawrenceCooper]

I'm surprised that Peter thinks that the ECF should postpone action

This is peak time for international junior teams. There's the group just back from the Athens under 20 and the group just heading out to Prague. If there are "lessons are to be learned", they would apply to the Athens and Prague groups as well.

Here's the wrap up from Athens by, I assume, one of the parents

http://englishchess.org.uk/Juniors/worl ... ship-2012/

It was written by Ravi's mum Sonal and is an accurate summary of proceedings for which I am very grateful. Sadly coaching four players combined with slow internet and a tidal wave of ECF e-mails meant I didn't manage anything more than posting results to the forum but I hope people at home were able to follow what was going on. I did manage to find time to arrange a birthday cake (complete with her name in icing) and card for Lateefah on her 20th birthday (6th August)

[Peter Turner]

I'm surprised that Peter thinks that the ECF should postpone action

This is peak time for international junior teams. There's the group just back from the Athens under 20 and the group just heading out to Prague. If there are "lessons are to be learned", they would apply to the Athens and Prague groups as well.

Here's the wrap up from Athens by, I assume, one of the parents

http://englishchess.org.uk/Juniors/worl ... ship-2012/

An earlier report from another tournament is, er, cryptic. Wonder who wrote it.

Richard, the task for writing the reports from Mureck was shared by willing parents, the coaches were far too busy doing coaching over and above the 'call of duty'. You'll see reference to their typical day in the reports. Essentially they were doing a 12 hour day!! Then Dave Regis had his Head of Delegation duties which took up the other 12 hours, he's probably still asleep back at home.

[Andrew Martin]

But Peter, who are you going to get to believe that quite ridiculous story?

[Peter D Williams]

But Peter, who are you going to get to believe that quite ridiculous story?

read that Andrew see below.you could phone the police to tell them you think it may be ridiculous if you have any evidence the police would want to know,
Re: Mureck: Alleged ECF Incident

Postby Sohale » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:16 pm
I am the father of Yousuf, that you have pictured displaying the injury he sustained in the tournament room in Mureck on 9 August 2012. The British police are investigating.
Firstly, may I extend my thanks and sincere gratitude to the various members of the Scotland delegation that supported my family during the tournament with their kindness and especially the gentleman who offered to accompany my wife and Yousuf to hospital.
Secondly, I am appealing to anyone who has any information relating to how, when and why my son sustained his injury or regarding any matters relating to how my family were treated, no matter how trivial you may think it is, to please report it to PC 1312 Sue Newns on 01553-665356 or [email protected].
I hope that with the help of decent people at the tournament my son may witness some justice.
Thank you all.

[Andrew Zigmond]

Peter, I'm sure this isn't your intention but by constantly repeating Mr Sohale's post on the Chess Scotland forum (this is the second time you've reproduced it) you give the impression that you support his campaign. Granted, appeals for information work both ways but Mr Sohale obviously wants people to help spread the word for him.

[Peter D Williams]

Peter, I'm sure this isn't your intention but by constantly repeating Mr Sohale's post on the Chess Scotland forum (this is the second time you've reproduced it) you give the impression that you support his campaign. Granted, appeals for information work both ways but Mr Sohale obviously wants people to help spread the word for him.

Are you saying he should not spread the word for evidence? Some one may come forward who says this did not happen?
Was Andrew saying the story was ridiculous about what may have happened? if so he may have evidence to support this claim and could then inform the police? so the link is to help people as some people do not read every page of a thread.

[Sean Hewitt]

Are you saying he should not spread the word for evidence? Some one may come forward who says this did not happen?

Judging by the ECF's unequivocal statement, it sounds very much like that has already happened.