Telegraph report about Austria

[Sean Coffey]

Then the police will come to that judgement as well if the alleged actions did not happen to the family..

The Austrian police (i.e. the force that have jurisdiction in this matter) have already come to that same judgement.

The English police have not so far come to that judgement and are investigating the allegations. The English police can and have investigated crimes allegedly committed by British citizens in other countries.

The English courts can and have imposed severe sanctions on false and defamatory statements made by British and other citizens.

The English courts have not so far come to a judgement that the allegations in this case are not false and defamatory.

[AustinElliott]

At the risk of labouring the point, I think we have once again to be aware of the Rashomon Effect.

Sean is correct, though, that many of the statements made about what is alleged to have happened in Austria look highly defamatory. It is also worth remembering that, to defend a defamation claim, you are likely to have to prove in court that what you said was substantially true - i.e. the burden of proof rests with the person defending the defamation suit.

Decisions taken by the CPS are different, in that they are trying to decide not 'Is it likely that X or Y happened', but rather

'Is it likely an offence was committed, AND is it likely a case can be brought that has a reasonable chance of being deemed proven in court'.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, rather a layman who has taken an interest in law, especially defamation law, connected to things like the Simon Singh libel case and the Twitter Joke Trial.

[Peter D Williams]

The English police have not so far come to that judgement and are investigating the allegations. The English police can and have investigated crimes allegedly committed by British citizens in other countries.[/quote]

The English courts can and have imposed severe sanctions on false and defamatory statements made by British and other citizens.

The English courts have not so far come to a judgement that the allegations in this case are not false and defamatory.[/quote]

Which of course they cannot do until the police/CPS have investigated and decided whether there is a case to answer or not or the accused launch a civil action should they chose to do so.

[Sean Coffey]

The English police have not so far come to that judgement and are investigating the allegations. The English police can and have investigated crimes allegedly committed by British citizens in other countries.

The English courts can and have imposed severe sanctions on false and defamatory statements made by British and other citizens.

The English courts have not so far come to a judgement that the allegations in this case are not false and defamatory.[/quote]

Which of course they cannot do until the police/CPS have investigated and decided whether there is a case to answer or not or the accused launch a civil action should they chose to do so.[/quote]

Indeed. In the meantime we just don't know. The allegations may be true, or they may be false. The ECF has investigated and currently says they don't find evidence supporting the allegations. The Austrian police (we're told) has investigated and didn't find anything they were interested in pursuing; they may or may not change their minds. The English police are (we're told) investigating, and may or may not decide to forward the matter to the CPS, which may or may not do anything about it. The accused may or may not launch civil actions.

Here's the part that puzzles me. When I raised the possibility that the allegations were unfounded and the accused might be entirely innocent, Peter said he thought that went without saying, so he hadn't said it. Fair enough. For the opposite possibility, that the English police will decide that the allegations are founded, I agree that this is certainly possible, but does that also go without saying? Somehow it doesn't, because Peter has said it, over and over again. If I were one of the accused players, parents, or coaches [and if I knew I was innocent of any wrongdoing], I'd find the tone of the comments here quite upsetting. It might be taken (and I don't mean to suggest that this is the intention) as displaying a sort of ghoulish relish in what must be a deeply upsetting situation.

[Jonathan Bryant]

The English police are (we're told) investigating ....

Who told us that?

[Peter D Williams]

The English police have not so far come to that judgement and are investigating the allegations. The English police can and have investigated crimes allegedly committed by British citizens in other countries.

The English courts can and have imposed severe sanctions on false and defamatory statements made by British and other citizens.

The English courts have not so far come to a judgement that the allegations in this case are not false and defamatory.

Which of course they cannot do until the police/CPS have investigated and decided whether there is a case to answer or not or the accused launch a civil action should they chose to do so.[/quote]

Indeed. In the meantime we just don't know. The allegations may be true, or they may be false. The ECF has investigated and currently says they don't find evidence supporting the allegations.

The Austrian police (we're told) has investigated and didn't find anything they were interested in pursuing; they may or may not change their minds. The English police are (we're told) investigating, and may or may not decide to forward the matter to the CPS, which may or may not do anything about it. The accused may or may not launch civil actions.

Here's the part that puzzles me. When I raised the possibility that the allegations were unfounded and the accused might be entirely innocent, Peter said he thought that went without saying, so he hadn't said it. Fair enough. For the opposite possibility, that the English police will decide that the allegations are founded, I agree that this is certainly possible, but does that also go without saying? Somehow it doesn't, because Peter has said it, over and over again. If I were one of the accused players, parents, or coaches [and if I knew I was innocent of any wrongdoing], I'd find the tone of the comments here quite upsetting. It might be taken (and I don't mean to suggest that this is the intention) as displaying a sort of ghoulish relish in what must be a deeply upsetting situation.[/quote]

It seems that I am confusing some people so let me make it clear:-

• I have no axe to grind
• I am on neither side – only on the side of right
• I am just trying to get everyone to think about the possible repercussions
• As there is a contact name and number for the police I think it is a safe assumption that they are investigating this.
• I think the ECF statement should have included that it has full confidence in its Coaches and Head of Delegation
• This is a very emotive subject and we all need to keep a clear head and not get carried away
• This is a forum to discuss chess and other matters (Not in Chess) therefore I am sure that if I have overstepped the mark Carl will moderate

[Alex McFarlane]

Who told us that?

E Michael White drew attention to a posting on the Chess Scotland (an association not a Federation) website from the father which gave a contact in the Norfolk police.

I have tried not to get involved in this issue as some would have misconstrued my motives. However, I have failed in my attempts to show restraint. It is obvious to all chess players that a posting allegedly by Loz Cooper was certainly not by him. It is disappointing that, regardless of anything else, that no ECF statement that I have seen has been released stating that to the general public. I suspect that everyone on here has no doubts that Loz did not deny knowing the players concerned. The ECF should have stated this categorically, in my opinion. By not doing so they have left Loz in an unenviable position.

This forum should also demonstrate its support for Loz in what must be a very trying time.

[Jonathan Bryant]

Who told us that?

E Michael White drew attention to a posting on the Chess Scotland (an association not a Federation) website from the father which gave a contact in the Norfolk police.

Yes, I've seen that. That there's a named person to send information to doesn't necessarily mean the police are "investigating" events in Austria - however you choose to define that word. They might well be for all I know, but I've yet to see it confirmed that they actually are.

[Peter D Williams]

Who told us that?

E Michael White drew attention to a posting on the Chess Scotland (an association not a Federation) website from the father which gave a contact in the Norfolk police.

Yes, I've seen that. That there's a named person to send information to doesn't necessarily mean the police are "investigating" events in Austria - however you choose to define that word. They might well be for all I know, but I've yet to see it confirmed that they actually are.

A named police officer to contact/ send information to about the alleged incidents.

[AustinElliott]

Aren't the police legally/procedurally required to give any alleged offence reported to them an incident number, and perhaps a named assigned officer? Then they make some kind of initial assessment, and perhaps some enquiries, before they assess whether a 'full' investigation (tracking down any/all witnesses to alleged offence) is warranted...?

So, leaving aside the 'Is there jurisdiction over an event that occurred in another country' question for now, there is 'being investigated' and there is 'being investigated'.

If this is the set-up, then someone appealing on a forum for people to contact a named officer of a named force with accounts of the alleged events would not imply per se how rigorously the alleged events are being investigated. It could be at the level of:

'Is there enough corroboration of the account that has been given to us, or bits of it, to justify launching a full investigation?"

[Warren Kingston]

Aren't the named family from Cambridge? If so want has Norfolk police got to do with the incident? I assume Cambridge isn't in Norfolk?

[Jonathan Bryant]

Aren't the police legally/procedurally required to give any alleged offence reported to them an incident number, and perhaps a named assigned officer?

That may or may not be true. It's certainly not necessarily true that the police will then "investigate" in any meaningful sense of the word.

As a matter of fact, and you can check the official crime statistics for this, while a great many offences are not reported to the police in the first place, it is also true that not every offence (as defined by 'the victim') that is reported to the police is recorded as a crime. This is where the latter part of your post comes in.

I suspect the Norfolk police were involved because that's where Mr Rahman lives. I saw a location given as where another of the families lives, but I'm not sure I'm inclined to repeat it here (aside from anything else I don't know that it's accurate).

[Warren Kingston]

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/08/498834.html

It says here where they live. Cambridge.

Can not see what Norfolk Police have to get involved for, should be Cambridgeshire Police, if there is such a force?

[Richard James]

They live here - just over the county boundary in Norfolk. Their nearest town is Wisbech, in Cambridgeshire.

[Jonathan Bryant]

Meanwhile, There's nothing gentle about indoor games